Al Qaeda materials found in Iraq!

[-Carnifex-]

Originally posted by FactsOfLife


JESUS H CHRIST ON A CRUTCH.

He HAD them before we ever went in there. Even that scumbag CLINTON said so.

Do you honestly think they somehow vanished under Saddams sudden cooperation with the UN????????????

Just curious; why is Clinton a scumbag?

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by -Carnifex-
Just curious; why is Clinton a scumbag?

Because Bill Clinton did (and does) lot's of things that normal people consider low

1) He had sex with an employee
2) He cheated on his wife
3) He lied to his wife (mind you also to a Grand Jury)
4) The last minute pardons were an flagrant abuse of power (even IF we assume that the pardons weren't bought)
5) Within months of leaving office he traveled to China were for a $50,000 speaking fee he savaged America (not Bush mind you, the USA) saying that China would be the only super power in a matter of time. Something no former President should ever do
6) Speaking of things no former President does, Clinton savages the Bush administration time and time again, despite a long standing tradition of not critisizing your successor. You think Bush I like CLinton's policies? Of course not, but he bit his tongue.

The list goes on for a while, but those are some of the major ones. They are also the ones that are beyond a doubt true (meaning I'm not going to count things like the possibility that he used armed force to divert attention from the Lewinsky affair. I think it's possible that's the reason he started to bluster militarly, but it is not a proven fact)

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by -Carnifex-


Just curious; why is Clinton a scumbag?

you want the abridged version or the unabridged version?

[-Carnifex-]

Thanks Alb.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Sir_Brass



Once again we see CB trying to back away from stuff he stated as facts and trying to show that we all misunderstood him again.

CB, if everyone except yourself misunderstands you, then it's time you learned to speak English. And if you already speak English, then maybe it's time for you to stop tauting your own blind speculation as the God-given truth.

I have not backtracked once, not in the thread where I was wrongfully called a something I was not, and not in this thread. I posted the same thing about there that I have been saying for the last 6 months or more.

I agree Miscue it is getting stupid, your side continually to state there is a link when proof has not been presented to state anything close to what you all are wishing for to justify the unjustifiable.

ABN, would you support a regime change in the US government. For what you are accusing Saddam of (again accusing no links at this time), Bush is equally guilty of. Bush everyday supports terrorist, and uses them to carry out attacks on a foreign government. Why the double standard. I thought terrorism was easily described and the world was black and white. Why is Bush sleeping with the enemy (to use a popular term).

But ABN we are rewarding their terrorist activities. Why don't we do the same with Palestine. Could be because the Palestinian enemies are Jewish not another Islamic race. The Kurdish militants will not stop until they have a country of their own. The governments of Turkey, Iran, and mostly all Middle eastern countries will not allow a Kurdish state. The Palestinians are a sovereign nation according to UN documents. Israel is forcibly occupying Palestinian land. Palestinians are doing nothing more then every country in the world has done when faced with the same situations. And don't you even try and say that is false. If the US was to step it, it is to stop Israel and to remove them from the Palestinian land. The Kurds are fighting to gain land, the Palestinians are fighting to free their land, two different things.

I am sorry you don't care, but you should.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
I have not backtracked once, not in the thread where I was wrongfully called a something I was not, and not in this thread. I posted the same thing about there that I have been saying for the last 6 months or more.

You found one completely ambigious quote to refute a half dozen very clear quotes of yours (which it doesn't even refute that).

CB, quit it. You make stuff up, get caught, and then pretnend you didn't say it. Be a grown up and take responsibility for the things you say.

I agree Miscue it is getting stupid, your side continually to state there is a link when proof has not been presented to state anything close to what you all are wishing for to justify the unjustifiable.

There has been ample evidence to substantiate the theory that there is a link. I would say at this point the fact that there is a connection has been proven and now we are left to discern the extent of the connection. It is you and your "side" that refuses to pay attention to any facts. There was clearly some collaberation going about. You like to bury your head in the sand and ignore it until it's too late, but not everyone wants that.

ABN, would you support a regime change in the US government.

We have our chance every four years for that.

For what you are accusing Saddam of (again accusing no links at this time), Bush is equally guilty of. Bush everyday supports terrorist, and uses them to carry out attacks on a foreign government. Why the double standard. I thought terrorism was easily described and the world was black and white. Why is Bush sleeping with the enemy (to use a popular term).

What the hell are you talking about?

But ABN we are rewarding their terrorist activities. Why don't we do the same with Palestine. Could be because the Palestinian enemies are Jewish not another Islamic race.

No, it's because the Palestinian terrorists are attacking foreign civillians. Plus, the situations are just too different. The Palestinians want land and territory that now belong to someone else and is occupied (and not just in the military definition of the word). The Kurds want self governenece and to be free of Saddam's rule, which are not only things we can live with, but things we want. The Kurds frankly get special treatment in this regard because we wanted Saddam out. The fact that they also wanted him out is nice, but not the sole reason for us going in.

And the Palestinians do have self rule. They already have what the Kurds wanted. What they don't have is the land that the Israelis are on, and that's a whole other ball game.

The Kurdish militants will not stop until they have a country of their own.

It is very unlikely they will get their own country. They will either learn to incorporate themselves into a sovereign and free Iraq or they will be put down. The majority of Kurds are willing (some are eager) to accept the new Iraq, and in the end it is likely they will prevail, and not the militants.

The governments of Turkey, Iran, and mostly all Middle eastern countries will not allow a Kurdish state.

And rightfully so (to their own stability). But mostly the Saudis won't permit it. Did you know that the majority of the Saud oil is located in its Kurdish territory that borders the Iraqi Kurds?

Frankly, I think we should support a seperate Kurdish state. It cripples the Sauds ability to fund terror and punishes the Turks for their role (or lack there of) in the war.

The Palestinians are a sovereign nation according to UN documents. Israel is forcibly occupying Palestinian land.

So is Jordan. We all know that Israel is in territory that didn't originally belong to them. To the Palestinians I would say STOP STARTING WARS AND THEN COMPLAINING WHEN YOU LOSE! I mean really, do I think the Palestinians should have their land back? I guess so, but it's the consequence they pay for initiating an armed conflict against Israel (to illegally seize their land I might add) and failing. This is the real world CB. The Palestinians need to learn there are consequences for their actions.

Palestinians are doing nothing more then every country in the world has done when faced with the same situations.

Every other nation in the world attacks their neighbor, loses, and then complains that it's not fair they lost by engaging in the brutal murder of civillians?

I think you've been watching too much Escape from New York

And don't you even try and say that is false.

It IS FALSE

If the US was to step it, it is to stop Israel and to remove them from the Palestinian land.

Not impossible, but unlikely. Although, if the Palestinians were to comply on their end and cease the terror and then the Israelis failed to comply with their side it is not unforseeable that we would step in on the Palestinians side in that situation.

The Kurds are fighting to gain land, the Palestinians are fighting to free their land, two different things.

The Kurds have their land. They're not fighting for land. They're fighting for freedom, which they have a chance at now. Remember, the Kurds had an opportunity to seize northern cities during the war and they didn't, at our request. So far they are behving in a appropriate manner. They may not forever, but for now they are.

I am sorry you don't care, but you should.

I care about things that matter. Not the make beleive importances of the left.

[Collegeboy]

The quote I quoted was one I just made before your statement. I was explaining to those who can not understand what I was saying. Easily, no proof, no convection. I will grant that their might be proof, but to me, that proof will lead to an ambiguous connection of which would include most countries of the world (or at least developed world)

When will you be a man and apologies for calling me a racist when you have no proof or reason to do so. Shall I quote again the statement you called me a racist too which only stated that once nationalism takes off, democracy can not work. Again waiting for an apology.

A link, maybe, but how big of one. Does this "link" mean anything other then the links to all countries in the world. How can the US justify attacking a country for doing what it does. (you wonder why hatred for us is high, even in Europe)

Would you support a foreign power to invade our country to overthrow Bush and take him to the Hauge to stand trial for supporting terrorism.

The Kurdish militants are attacking innocent civilians. The Palestinians what the land that is legally theirs. it belongs to no one but them. Israel is occupying it through force (can you say illegal). The Palestinians want self government and to be free from the oppression of the government of Israel. They already have self rule, hum, I guess that is why they are being ethnically cleansed from their land by the expanding state of Israel. I guess that is why they are being fenced off and forced to live in deployable conditions. All the Palestinians want is freedom, and what is theirs. I would have thought the same country that spawned the most successful "revolution" in history on the ideas of liberty, fraternity, and tranquility (I think those are it) could understand this.

They will accept the Iraq as long as they are in control, and the others will not allow this. Nationalism is too strong.

The Palestinians didn't start any wars, please read up on what happened, I would be willing to give you the name of many sources and books if you want them.

The Palestinians tried before to stop their attacks, Israel not only did not remove theirselves from the land, but expanded into more land.

If Israel was to stop their attacks on Palestinians and remove themselves from the illegally held land, then the attacks would stop.

No you do not care about the truth or understanding a situation as you said in the first statement of two post ago. You look at things in a black and white manner, and resort to a gray manner when it suits you. You do not care for both sides and are quick to judgment. Please look at both sides equally, find out why they do what they do, what does this mean, is both sides being truthful, etc....

[Army]

In 1948, the legal, recognised, "owners" of the Palestine/Israel/Lebanon territory's, was Britain.

The ONLY peoples that legally gain their respective land, in accordance with UN protocols, was Israel. Ever since then, the ARAB world has contrived to destroy Israel and her people. Three major incursions into the Israeli state by the combined forces of the Arab League, were handily beat back by the IDF. The results of pushing the ILLEGAL warring states back across their respective borders, and legally occupying that gained territory (as per Hague protocols), was the formation of the PLO. The stated position of the PLO, as led by Yassar Arafat, was to kill all the Jews or push them into the sea.

The Palestinians have NEVER had a recognised state, they occupy an Associate seat at the UN, they are NOT a member.

Reality may suck, in your mind CB, but do not confuse your make-believe with the facts of history.

[Collegeboy]

On November 29, 1947 the UN entered into a General Assembly vote that voted 33-13 to divide the Palestine territory into two parts, one the state of Israel, the other the state of Palestine. This lead to the Partition Plan of 1948, which I am sure you know of. Thus a separate state of Israel and a separate state of Palestine.

Why don't you look into the actions of the Haganah Jewish forces during this time and after.

How about the attack on Dier Yassin in 1948, and the leaflets passed out to Arabs after.

Palestine did not attack Israel, Arabian forces and Israel forces attacked each other, both sides starting attacks.

As for the illegal actions of Israel, under the Hague convention the area of Palestine could be a occupied land, if they attacked, Palestine was not the aggressor nation, but were caught up in a fight between Israel and the other Arabian states.

If you believe that Palestine is a legally occupied land you then have to condemn Israel for their illegal punishing of the Palestinians as backed by the 4th Geneva Convention of 1949.


History is a great thing, for those willing to understand it.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
The quote I quoted was one I just made before your statement. I was explaining to those who can not understand what I was saying. Easily, no proof, no convection. I will grant that their might be proof, but to me, that proof will lead to an ambiguous connection of which would include most countries of the world (or at least developed world)

I posted half a dozen quotes that say the exact opposite of what you're saying now.

And I would think that most industrialized countries are not allowing their intelligence officers to meet and train Al Queda operatives. Saddam was, and that that was very dangereous

When will you be a man and apologies for calling me a racist

When you stop being one

when you have no proof or reason to do so.

I've listed my reasons a bunch of times now

Shall I quote again the statement you called me a racist

Go right ahead

too which only stated that once nationalism takes off, democracy can not work.

That's not all you said

Again waiting for an apology.

Hold your breath and count to a billion


A link, maybe, but how big of one. Does this "link" mean anything other then the links to all countries in the world. How can the US justify attacking a country for doing what it does. (you wonder why hatred for us is high, even in Europe)

Why do you insist on pretending that the US and Saddam behave the same way? It's a lie. Are you so blinded by hatred for the good ole' USA that you can't even be objective?

Would you support a foreign power to invade our country to overthrow Bush and take him to the Hauge to stand trial for supporting terrorism.

If it could be demostrated that Bush activily harbored and supported terrorism with his full consent and knowledge by ulitilzing his government resources as President, sure.

But no such evidence exists

The Kurdish militants are attacking innocent civilians.

Yeah, but they allow us in their territory to conduct raids and find and kill the terrorists. As such we don't need to punish them all.

The Palestinians what the land that is legally theirs.

A debateable point who the land now belongs to, but they are going about their goal by illegally committing terrorist acts against civillians. Why don't you think that's wrong?

it belongs to no one but them.

Prior to their war of aggression that was true.

Israel is occupying it through force (can you say illegal).

Well, that's what happens when you start a war and lose. Next time tell your buddy Arafat not to pick a fight he can't win

The Palestinians want self government and to be free from the oppression of the government of Israel.

They have that. What they WANT is for Israel to be detrpyed

They already have self rule, hum, I guess that is why they are being ethnically cleansed from their land by the expanding state of Israel.

Um, drinking much? Israel is not ethnicly cleansing. They occasionally go in and kill terrorists, but it is not ethinic cleansing

I guess that is why they are being fenced off and forced to live in deployable conditions.

What are deployable condidtions? To be deployed?

And how exactly does a FENCE commit the genocide you accuse Israel of?

All the Palestinians want is freedom, and what is theirs.

Yeah, and they have their freedom. And they have the tools to get the land back, but they refuse to avail themselves of the system

I would have thought the same country that spawned the most successful "revolution" in history on the ideas of liberty, fraternity, and tranquility (I think those are it) could understand this.

We do, that's why we iniated the roadmap. It's not our fault the Palestinians, who agreed to it, REFUSE to abide by it

They will accept the Iraq as long as they are in control, and the others will not allow this. Nationalism is too strong.

Well, hopefully the will accept Iraq so long as they maintain fairly significant local governnance as well as a representitive portion of the federal power. It looks like that will probably happen so we'll wait and see how it turns out.


The Palestinians didn't start any wars, please read up on what happened, I would be willing to give you the name of many sources and books if you want them.

I know what happened. Palestine engaged in a war with multiple Arab states and lost. Too bad

The Palestinians tried before to stop their attacks, Israel not only did not remove theirselves from the land, but expanded into more land.

Well, too bad. Really CB, too F*ing bad. Next time they know not to engage in the war. They shouldn't have done it and they came out the losers. Now they want to complain that they lost? Fine. They tools are there for them to get the land back and the WON'T STOP THE TERROR.

That's all they have to do and they refuse. This is the grownup world CB. They can't expect to get everything they want while at the same time killing every civillian they can get their hands on.

Is there any reason you always have to come back to the same nonsense with this? We can't talk about ANYTHING without you running back to your prescious Palestinians and their terrible conflict. You obvioulsy don't care a wit about Israel or about murder the murder of their civillians and we all know that. We all know you blame Israel and the US 100% and we all know that like all liberals you are immune to the concept of responsibility for one's actions. So stop it. I'm tired of listening to you ceaseless prattle on this subject.

If Israel was to stop their attacks on Palestinians and remove themselves from the illegally held land, then the attacks would stop.

Oh yeah?

Then what about this summer during the cease fire when Israel halted all operations for weeks and the attacks continued? There were 3 or 4 large attacks on Israel to which Israel didn't respond and the attacks kept on coming. It became apparent then that Israel not retalliating only encourage the terrorists to strike.

No you do not care about the truth or understanding a situation as you said in the first statement of two post ago. You look at things in a black and white manner, and resort to a gray manner when it suits you.

Blah.

It is fairly black and white in Israel. If the terror stops the Palestnians get what they want. That's it. That's all. It takes nothing more.

You do not care for both sides and are quick to judgment.

I care for everyone that's life is being ruined by the conflict. But the terrorists don't. ANd they are causing the problems.

Please look at both sides equally, find out why they do what they do, what does this mean, is both sides being truthful, etc....

Shut up.

I'll take none of this "look at both sides" crap from a narrow minded person like yourself. You refuse to acknowledge any wrong doing by a people that kill civillians (or try) EVERY DAY! Until you realize that is completely and undeniably wrong we have nothing more to talk about on the subject.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I have not backtracked once, not in the thread where I was wrongfully called a something I was not, and not in this thread. I posted the same thing about there that I have been saying for the last 6 months or more.

You said we will not find Saddam! Also did you mention something about not having an Rx benefit for seniors. Hmmm you are right as usual

ABN, would you support a regime change in the US government. For what you are accusing Saddam of (again accusing no links at this time), Bush is equally guilty of. Bush everyday supports terrorist, and uses them to carry out attacks on a foreign government. Why the double standard. I thought terrorism was easily described and the world was black and white. Why is Bush sleeping with the enemy (to use a popular term).

Hmmm when was the last time Bush used WoMD to kill tens of thousands of civilian Kurds? That is right, never. But of course that was okay for Saddam because as YOU CB STATED ALL KURDS ARE TERRORISTS!!

That staement alone is why ABN does not need to apologize.

Remember that it is better to be silent and considered a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Just some friendly advice.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
On November 29, 1947 the UN entered into a General Assembly vote that voted 33-13 to divide the Palestine territory into two parts, one the state of Israel, the other the state of Palestine. This lead to the Partition Plan of 1948, which I am sure you know of. Thus a separate state of Israel and a separate state of Palestine.

Ah but only the security council resolutions have any weight to them. The General Assembly is a joke and that is why the founders of the founders of the UN gave it no teeth. How many times has the US been condemned over the years by the GA? So find a secuity council resolution to back up your statements or realize that it is not illegal!

Palestine did not attack Israel, Arabian forces and Israel forces attacked each other, both sides starting attacks.

So the Intifada was born of fereign Arabian forces attacking Israel?

As for the illegal actions of Israel, under the Hague convention the area of Palestine could be a occupied land, if they attacked, Palestine was not the aggressor nation, but were caught up in a fight between Israel and the other Arabian states.

Palestine was not a nation. They rejected the UN's propositions as they wanted all the land and no partition. They did not begin relying on that resolution until they got their butts kicked multiple times by the Israelis!

I guess the US should give back New Mexico and the like to Old Mexico too then, eh? Or for a more recent example, should the French have to return Alsyce-Lorraine (sp?) to Germany as they took it from them as spoils of WWI?

Remember to the Victor go the spoils, not the victims!

History is a great thing, for those willing to understand it.

Exactly! So try it, you may like it!

Look at history. How many countries were founded on conquered land. That is history, deal with it!

[FactsOfLife]

Then answer this simple question CB, when Arafat had 95% of what he was asking for virually handed to him on a platter, why did he turn it down?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?

[Sir_Brass]

CB, you wonder why the US is now so hated in the world, and I can answer that. The reason is that we are doing the right thing. People hate that. We're hated b/c we're doing what is right and when other countries object b/c the right thing we're doing interfere's with their quest to become more wealthy, well, we get hated for that. Fine. I don't care. What is more important: finally bringing justice to an oppressed people when we should've done so years before, or not interfering in France's illegal business dealings?

Answer that CB. What's more important: bringing justice to a land crying out for it, or is it more important to be liked? Answer one or the other, and don't you DARE sidetrack this question.

[Collegeboy]

Funny ABN, sometimes I wonder if you have a very short memory span or forget things that damage your beliefs. My belief in this area is that BOTH parties are wrong in what they do. Palestine was a victim of Israel and the other Arabic states own aggression (read up on the haganah, please go ahead). It is wrong what the Palestinian terrorist groups do (thus different from Palestinians), and what the IDF and the government of Israel does. I lean more to the side of Palestine only because they are refuges in their own country. They are fighting for what is theirs. They tried peace before, and Israel wouldn't give them back their land. This matter is very gray, not black and white as some people believe.

The US has and still to this day supports terrorism, the government trains, and sponsors certain terrorist groups that we find we can use. That is what I am saying, I am not sayin the US and Saddam are equal. You are so quick to say that Al Queda and Saddam are one because of a few little information, but refuse to say the US and Al Queda are on based on the same little information, or other terrorist groups. Thus I said you are not looking at the situation openly and refuse to take off your blinders.