Artillery Round Containing Sarin Nerve Agent Explodes In Iraq

[cphilip]

thats my favoritest quote from him. Used to be my first signature when I was just a wee lad member here. Others do not like it though.

While I have seen him listed a Diest I have not seen that in any of his late writings. Most of the later writings show him to be an agnostic or athiest to most extent. At least most religeous scholars consider that he was late in life and at his death.

Here is some of his stuff. You decide....

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.

-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor




Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.


-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor



Revelation indeed had no weight with me.

-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor




The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.

-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor




When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.

-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

[Jeffy-CanCon]

I'm a fan of Ben Franklin's sayings, and depending on my mood my favourite is either that beer quote, or the "essential liberty" one. At least, they are the only two I consistently remember.

[cphilip]

thats my favoritest quote from him. Used to be my first signature when I was just a wee lad member here. Others do not like it though.

While I have seen him listed a Diest I have not seen that in any of his late writings. Most of the later writings show him to be an agnostic or athiest to most extent. At least most religeous scholars consider that he was late in life and at his death.

Here is some of his stuff. You decide....

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.

-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor




Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.


-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor



Revelation indeed had no weight with me.

-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor




The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.

-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor




When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.

-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

And then of course he writes at times he believes in God. Or a God which he considers to be male and rather non involved. So that Diest thing comes from those things. Rather confusing veiw of his but he was tolerant of religion in general. But intolerant of organized ones more or less.

[Target Practice]

...

Phil, don't the quotes you pick out only criticize organized religion? If he was a Deist, then he could still criticize religion 'til the cows come home.

EDIT: Ahh. Got it. But yeah, IMO, I think the Framers had some type of God in mind when they concieved the basis of our nation, with that basis being a moral one.

[Rooster]

"Freedom of Association? Innocent until proven guilty?

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin"

I wasn't making a comentary on right or wrong, only a statement of what happened in both countries.

And as far as statistics go, I sure you will agree that 7000 out of 2.5 million is very different than 1 million out of 2.5 million. US deaths to enemy deaths means nothing. It just means we have gotten better at not killing people and not getting killed over time.

[spantol]

Yeah, Franklin had a particular knack for transcending labels. The Wikipedia entry on deism claims that Franklin shared some of its beliefs, but the entry on Franklin mentions nothing. The Divine Watchmaker metaphor seems very much inline with his behavior, though.

And then of course he writes at times he believes in God. Or a God which he considers to be male and rather non involved. So that Diest thing comes from those things. Rather confusing veiw of his but he was tolerant of religion in general. But intolerant of organized ones more or less.

[Target Practice]

US deaths to enemy deaths means nothing. It just means we have gotten better at not killing people and not getting killed over time.

But isn't that what matters in war? I mean, isn't that the whole idea when we are over there?

[cphilip]

Yeah, Franklin had a particular knack for transcending labels. The Wikipedia entry on deism claims that Franklin shared some of its beliefs, but the entry on Franklin mentions nothing. The Divine Watchmaker metaphor seems very much inline with his behavior, though.

Yep. Diest might be the closest you can come I guess. Might be as accurate as any label I guess. Odd bird he was. Interesting fellow. But yet he does good work for Churches anyway. Gives money to build a synagog. Works withing the Masons and in the early legal system for tolerance of various religions. All sorts of things.

[Jack_Dubious]

Since Deism only has one real creed, (that there is a God..and to a lesser degree the use of reason over "faith" and superstition), many people can be considered Deists, or having Deistic attitudes. Proclaimed Deists can have wildly differing beliefs and views....yet they all share a belief in a God (Creator) and believe in the use of reason over faith and hearsay.
Ben Franklin maybe considered a Deist and it might be a very fitting description, but I dont think he would/did ever proclaim himself as one. Ive even read Deistic arguments for George Washington, Abe Lincoln and Jesus.

btw- About a year ago after finally reading Tom Paine's "Age of Reason", i decided to renounce Christianity and become a Deist. And havent looked back ever since. "Age of Reason" made more sense to me than the Bible ever did.


JDub

[Jack_Dubious]

Here is some of his stuff. You decide....

most all of those quotes were very Deistic.

JDub

[Rooster]

"But isn't that what matters in war? I mean, isn't that the whole idea when we are over there?"

How can someone who is dead submit to your rule? The Romans learned long ago that to conquer a people, you can't kill them all.

[FactsOfLife]

btw- About a year ago after finally reading Tom Paine's "Age of Reason", i decided to renounce Christianity and become a Deist. And havent looked back ever since. "Age of Reason" made more sense to me than the Bible ever did.


JDub

burn baby burn.... Jdub's inferno! burn baby burn!

[Jeffy-CanCon]

"Freedom of Association? Innocent until proven guilty?

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin"

I wasn't making a comentary on right or wrong, only a statement of what happened in both countries.

And as far as statistics go, I sure you will agree that 7000 out of 2.5 million is very different than 1 million out of 2.5 million. US deaths to enemy deaths means nothing. It just means we have gotten better at not killing people and not getting killed over time.

That's true, you made no comment on right/wrong.

7000/2,500,0000 is less than 1,000,000/2,500,000, Yes. But the point still doesn't detract from what CaptaiN Jack was trying to say, I think. But maybe you understood him differently than I did. He was a little garbled.

In any case, it would be wrong to compare numbers between Iraq and Vietnam, though only because of the amount of time involved. The involvment in Iraq has been 14 months, versus eight years of US involvement in Vietnam (in the midst of a 20yr+ civil war).

[Target Practice]

"But isn't that what matters in war? I mean, isn't that the whole idea when we are over there?"

How can someone who is dead submit to your rule? The Romans learned long ago that to conquer a people, you can't kill them all.

Ahhh, but the the Romans were trying to assimilate the people. We aren't trying to do that. I think all we want to do is set up a democracy, they we get the hell out of Dodge. We are killing the people who want to kill us. We aren't going to set up shop in that God-forsaked desert. We're just visiting.

[davidb]

The comparison that Captain Jack made was invalid because the point that he was trying to make was that this war was going worse for us than Vietnam was, based on the fact that the total US deaths : total "enemy" deaths ratio is higher than it was in Vietnam. I put quotations around "enemy" because of the fact that that statistic, in the way that Captain used it, includes not only the actual enemy, but civilian noncombatants.

There is really no way to make a valid statistical comparison between the two wars, because in Vietnam a large percentage of the people that we were fighting were not in any kind of uniform, and in Iraq NONE of the people that we are fighting wear any kind of uniform. To positively differentiate between dead civilian innocents and dead civilian combatants is a task best left to St. Peter.

If we wanted to improve our standing in Jack's little ratio, all we would have to do is bring back the napalm, bring back the carpet bombing, bring back the.. well, I don't suppose Agent Orange would be worth the effort. Might take out a palm tree or something.. But anyway, you get the point. In Vietnam we were fighting a war, and calling it a police action. In Iraq, we're fighting (in many ways) a police action, and calling it a war.