Is this really the way things are with the pro level markers?

[Head knight of Ni]

Well denial aside everyone can agree that many competitive tournament teams are using markers that are ramping or runing away. I'm thrilled to see that the NPPL is cracking down on Illegal markers. New devices have been imployed to catch cheater boards and the such. One team has already been eliminated from an entire tourney for illegal markers
cough- redz hurricane-cough.

[Beemer]

Not me

I somehow doubt I'll be pulling 14 or so with a mech ULT trigger

Because Why? Youre not that fast........go see my, how fast are you really thread
Sandman could pull 12 on a classic back in 92, wonder what he does on a ult now.

Avg is 8 to 10
Fast is 12 to 15
After that youre in the special skill group if it really is one shot one pull.

I am totally amazed that you guys.........

Hey I aint with that "you guys" group. My world is in a different shift.

I wasnt slandering or libeling anyone, I didn't mention any names. Go ask someone who was at the ASTM meetings and they will tell you.

Ask Bud Orr. He is the Chairman of the paintBall subcommittee.

[teufelhunden]

Advertising is a wicked thing.

You need money to advertise, but you won't make money unless you advertise. See how that works?

I think you should lay off Tom, he's doing well with his small business. I say small because it does not have it's own seperate corporate headquaters, it's own warehouse, marketing dept,etc. AGD is basically run out of 1 building (correct me if I'm wrong). It's easy for people like yourself to sit on the sidelines and complain, but it's another thing to actually try and do something as expensive as advertising. Magazine ads cost money, sponsoring teams costs money, getting your product's name out there (save for word of mouth) costs money. That's what our industry is about: money, money, money. He who has the deepest pockets calls the shots. It's sad to say, but I don't think Tom sleeps on a mattress stuffed with $100 bills. Give him a break.

I've always been taught that doing well, in a business sense, means expansion. I'm sure TK has a method for his madness [or hell, maybe not], but I haven't seen much in the way of expansion. New products, yeah, but an expansion in the market, not really.

Off to work. Will return later.

[billmi]

New devices have been imployed to catch cheater boards and the such.

New devices have been employed in the NPPL to catch legal guns that are adjusted into an illegal mode of operation.

No new deviced have been employed, or even designed to catch cheater boards (i.e. boards designed to operate illegally only when secretly selected to do so, and then revert back to legal operation automatically) nor has anyone even laid out a method for which to catch them.

[Muzikman]

New devices have been employed in the NPPL to catch legal guns that are adjusted into an illegal mode of operation.

No new deviced have been employed, or even designed to catch cheater boards (i.e. boards designed to operate illegally only when secretly selected to do so, and then revert back to legal operation automatically) nor has anyone even laid out a method for which to catch them.

Not sure how you would ever test that. Maybe standardize on boards and code and plug the guns in at random before or after games and check the code. Byond that, what could you do? To say you can only have factory boards would not work as people have found that they can reverse engineer the code in these boards and make it do what ever they want.

I personally think it's a lost cause and the problems will just get worse.

[billmi]

To say you can only have factory boards would not work as people have found that they can reverse engineer the code in these boards and make it do what ever they want.

It also assumes that a manufacturer would not make a cheater board for its own sponsored teams. History shows that is not the case.

[Stimulation]

Teufelhunden, as much as marketing is nice and will get you far, I really think you need to realize that AGD is really showing some class by not wasting all their time there. The best ideas I could see in the world is actually the sort of marketing that they're starting right now. Sponsoring Blitzkrieg in the scenario market, so that people will now see a large team and have a chance to interact with them. Hell, maybe even get a chance to tag along and try not to get in the way.

Holy Sh*t that is complete genius!!! GENIUS I SAY, GENIUS!!!!


I really wished somebody or some company would have thought about this new thing, sponsoring a team. They should call is sponsorship!!

Maybe other companies will catch on, like the big ones, AGD's competitors that are succeeding them in every category, soon we will see teams wearing their company names on paintball vests and sights and jerseys and such.

I just can't wait for everybody else to catch up to the times, it should be excellent.




"Dont blame being non competitive on "the other guys cheat and we dont" mentality. Try blaming your poor marketing, small market presence, slow development, terrible roll-out capabilitys, and just plain lower performance for once and fix the problems instead of complaining about the situation."

Tom, this sounds like it is dancing on slander .. Do you have any proof of this? If so, post the code and PROVE it to us.

Shot buffering is another thing... Hell, your own 3.2 software does this but your trigger timming was so slow that you could not get the same effect as a timmy, dm4, or eblade can do (but will most likely get banned in most tourneys under the " trigger bounce" rule.)

The only [possibly] tourney level mechs are really nice 'Cockers and hAir Mags, both of which have more moving parts than most electros, save Eblades.

[Xtraboy]

Sadly, all guns have bounce today, nearly every single electro marker can bounce now... sad really..

shoot, even my spyder can bounce... http://home.comcast.net/~slipknot_fa...nt_-_33bps.MOV

[Jeffy-CanCon]

OK, THIS is why paintball isn't a serious sport.

ASTM aside, no governing body of a real sport would allow the use of equipment they cannot verify as being safe and within their own rules. That is proof that the industry calls the shots in paintball. If they can call the shots on the equipment, it's a short leap of logic that they are interfering in other ways as well. That's not honest competition, and thus paintball is not respected as a "real sport".

[GoatBoy]

New devices have been employed in the NPPL to catch legal guns that are adjusted into an illegal mode of operation.

No new deviced have been employed, or even designed to catch cheater boards (i.e. boards designed to operate illegally only when secretly selected to do so, and then revert back to legal operation automatically) nor has anyone even laid out a method for which to catch them.

And there probably never will be without some sort of really invasive solution.

This is sadly more a failing of our little paintball community.

We have way too many in our midst who admire, and aspire to be, the cheaters in our sport.

Then, out of the minority that doesn't admire the cheaters, you can slice the ranks down even further by separating those who have the integrity to speak with their money, and those who don't.



In the end, as far as the companies are concerned, they don't care because the people don't care.




All that aside, it's funny to see AGD get roasted like this. AGD is always right, huh?

[SlartyBartFast]

OK, THIS is why paintball isn't a serious sport.

ASTM aside, no governing body of a real sport would allow the use of equipment they cannot verify as being safe and within their own rules.

Too true.

The whole invasive garbage about proper enforcement is hogwash. There are only so many microcontrollers on the market. It would be a simple issue to have an independant individual examine and approve all code and have compiled code and the equipment to flash all guns prior to a tourney. Put a tamper resistant sticker over the whole board and VOILA! end of all cheater boards.

There are escrow companies for large complex coputer code, the piddling little programs for paintguns would be a joke to examine and monitor.

[hitech]

Actually, detecting cheater boards is a lot harder than at first it appears. I could make a cheater board for an eMag that would be undetectable. Why? Because it wouldn't be mounted in the marker! It would be mounted in my glove and never have to come in contact with the marker.

F1 racing couldn't figure out how to police "fly by wire", even with their huge budget. How can we expect to?

That said, you would think they would at least make an attempt. They should at least be able to slow it down. The problem is that they are not motivated enough.

[billmi]

Too true.

It would be a simple issue to have an independant individual examine and approve all code and have compiled code and the equipment to flash all guns prior to a tourney.

That would be a far, far from simple issue.

[GoatBoy]

Too true.

The whole invasive garbage about proper enforcement is hogwash. There are only so many microcontrollers on the market. It would be a simple issue to have an independant individual examine and approve all code and have compiled code and the equipment to flash all guns prior to a tourney. Put a tamper resistant sticker over the whole board and VOILA! end of all cheater boards.

There are escrow companies for large complex coputer code, the piddling little programs for paintguns would be a joke to examine and monitor.

Hrm.

Even if this were the case, are you assuming the only way to cheat is to change the main microcontroller's code?


Yeah, checking a micro's code is fairly simple. Same with glue logic (CPLD's, FPGA's, etc), ROM's, and whatever else, I guess provided the pins for the interface are accessible and that they're not read-protected. I guess you'd mandate that the manufacturers are going to leave the debug ports open and code unlocked for this?


But alas, that's too simple.


To do this right, you would need more than a simple-minded code check. It would require a full physical audit of components and layout, because boy, you could really be sneaky and bury a micro right inside the trigger switch, right? Or how about that one mysterious IC that was either unmarked or mislabeled?


How about an RF/magnetic triggered cheat? How about an out-of-spec board that happens to "accidentally" make contacts with points on the marker that are electrically (or any other means) accessible from the outside? Uh oh, now you have to start checking the physical gun itself.





This tamper resistant sticker technology... can you describe it in detail please? How would that work exactly? Maybe you're thinking of something more advanced than what I'm used to.

[jesseyo13]

It would be a lot easier on wdp guns with infa red ports. If someone really wanted to they probibly could. Acording to the manual it can read up to 20-25 feet.