PTP Fascination

[JKR]

That is where the market is or needs to be. Put out a product that people want, for a good price and then see what the people are asking for. If you dictate what you will make, then people will go elsewhere.

Wait, what?

So as a manufacturer, you put out what someone wants at a good price and then wait to see if someone else wants your piece? You don't do a cost/risk analysis, even as a niche shop, to determine your feasibility of saying "yes" or "no" to a job?

[Nobody]

Wait wait what? I'm not sure if I misunderstood your sentence structure... but what?!

Cuz you know, those stainless bodies are more valuable to me than the ULE ones. That would be a freaking shame if they were scrapped.

More valuable to you, but the majority of mags now use threaded barrels. There are some "purest" out there, and i wouldn't begrudge them from keeping their twist locks, but the choices cor more modern barrels is limited. I remember in passing that AGD did have a slew of bodies made, but then the idea or implementation of the threaded body became pretty much standard. Look at why people went for PTP micromags? The aluminium bodies(not only could be anno'd for personal tastes) but had the better barrel choice(NOT necessarily the better barrel system).

I LOL'd. Even I decided not to touch that one.

But I'm not above dogpiling on top.

Palmers: The $1224 Auto-Lance. Exactly what players want AND need!

CCM: The $1199 SSR. Bolt action, BECAUSE REASON!

CCM has flatly stated IT DOES NOT DO CUSTOM WORK.


Some of you... I swear it sounds like you took oaths of fealty to these manufacturers. This is going beyond corn dog territory. I will have to rethink the analogy.

Sorry, my statement was disjointed. At work, frustrated and hating people.

You sir are in the minority of wants. Do you have either of the top priced guns? Yes, that is very generic to say, as i do have generic purchases: an axe, a resurrection, an ego. But mine is an ID Krypontite Axe, a ID Ripper Resurrection and an older Ego06.

The arch of guns has always been in this century has been: electros, mechs, pumps then stock class/mag feed. To a point, you have to go to the biggest market to survive. Making a few of this or that does not set the world on fire. A bolt action gun? That is a novelty, pure and simple. Without firststrikes, it is even less of a novelty. Its an expensive paperweight. Maybe i am on the wrong coast for Palmers, but if they were great, where is the push for them to be at every field? Now i do love a blazer. I will get one, if i can find the right one, but i do not need it...

Now i do fully support the companies i like. AGD, ICD, ID. I believe in their products, use their products. I try to get people to also support them. I won't twist their arms if they don't use, yet will always be their suggesting them. If i can convert 1 person to what i use, then i am a happy person.

You sir, are unique. In the way yoj play, bow you set up your gear. If the fields where filled with you, then you would be in the majority, thusly not be unique. I take no umbridge if you disagree. I, in fact like it. That is how discussions & understanding happens.

[Cyco-Dude]

...but the majority of mags now use threaded barrels.

i'll go ahead and disagree with that. based on what i've seen over the past few years, and even what i have in my collection, steel bodies with twistlock barrels outnumber threaded bodies by at least 5-to-1. lots and lots and lots of classic 'mags still out there, and still kicking butt!

[going_home]

I'll go ahead and say it, powerfeeds with elbows, and twist locks are junk.

Hoppers flipping around, no fun to replace barrel detents........

[MAGgot]

Trying not to feed the trolls here... it's hard to resist.

There was a good thread on this a few years ago. http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...t=ptp+micromag
Micromags were a very good value when compared to the base Automag price and other custom markers of that time. They remained popular for nearly 10 years.



Here's some reasons why Micromags were/are awesome

[Frizzle Fry]

PTP never had anything to do with ICD.

Yes, they did... markers and accesories. In fact they hold the patent for the 'cat series firing system; the roller valve.

Though they were one of the first companies to offer options for guns(namely the automag) that had little to no options, they were not the best when other options came about. Its easy to corner the market when you are alone in the field. It is sorely a different story when new and possibly better quality products come about from other companies...

You want a list? First aluminum Automag body, first unibody Automag, first threaded-barrel Automag, the first threaded sear pin. Popularized the 45 frame for Automag and Autococker - it became the standard on most markers for a decade to follow. Put a factory detent on the Autococker before WGP did, and put a superior detent on automags, VM68s and M98s. Put powerfeeds on Autocockers, VM68s and M98s. Put trigger adjustment screws in Autococker frames. Offered double trigger Automag and Autococker frames. These all seem pretty standard now, but weren't then.

Maybe you had to be there, playing, to appreciate what PTP did and what they offered in their heyday... Those who started in the late 90s and early 2000s are somewhat spoiled in two senses; first, most markers came with detents, velocity adjusters, regulators and expansion chamber, and were designed to be easy to strip and adjust. Second, the internet and the "big business" era of paintball made a lot of options available nationwide, including many marker colors, truly drop-in upgrades, and easy to find, paintball-oriented anodizing services. Private labels and customshop guns produced in large numbers.

When I started playing you could buy from a catalog or on the shelf at a local shop, and most guns were bricks or tubes in silver or black, maybe a solid color. My first autococker was a Boston Paintball Express with some simple cuts, a trigger job, and a handful of upgrade parts from various brands. Custom options were regional or catalog order items, many of which were "garage customs" offered by fields and custom shops, with raw cuts and hand-done trigger jobs. PTP offered "factory customs" with a unique and uniform finish, piles of "upgrades" ready to go from the factory, cheaper than Carters or BBTs, and as easily available in California as they were in Massachusetts. That model was copied and echoed by other companies for years to come.

And please tell me, what revolutionary things did PTP do? Ocfering a different body/setup than what AGD had, yes nice, but if you do not adjust to the market trends & what players need, you will die in the products that whither on the shelves.

Their products did not wither on the shelf when paintball was their focus; they did MANY revolutionary things when paintball was their focus, and owned a decent market share for as long as Autocockers and Automags were a competitive standard. After 9/11 they shifted their focus to military contracts, did a crummy deal with Viewloader, and focused on military grade milsim Tippmann accessories... rather than moving on to Intimidators and Matrixes when they became the tournament standard. In that sense, they copied market trends (milsim on the rise, big-box store guns gaining popularity) but simply made the wrong choices.

[Cyco-Dude]

I'll go ahead and say it, powerfeeds with elbows, and twist locks are junk.

Hoppers flipping around, no fun to replace barrel detents........

*shrugs* junk in your opinion, of course. in the end it's just an aluminum (or steel, or brass!) tube...it does the job. also, my hoppers don't flip around (armson pro-feed elbow!), and the detents take an o-ring pick and 15 seconds to change lol.

[going_home]

You are right, just an opinion, they are like feet, most people have them and most of them stink...

[vintage]

I prefer twist lock barrels and I buy micro mags mainly for the finish and the more accessories that match the better. my only complaint with the PTP elbows is they aren't see thru.

[MAGgot]

Great post, Frizzle! Really sums things up much more eloquently than I could have put it.

Maybe you had to be there, playing, to appreciate what PTP did and what they offered in their heyday...

This part especially rings true. These days it's easy to say "the cocker threaded mag body is common", but by the time ULE bodies and X-valves were released the Micromag was already 10 years old and no longer even being produced!

[Frizzle Fry]

It's also important to remember that the final iteration of the AGD Automag, Toms magnum opus, the X-mag was a unibody which PTP pioneered... and the Emag lowers it utilized were developed through collaboration between AGD and PTP.

[luke]

Toms magnum opus, the X-mag was a unibody which PTP pioneered.

I thought Simon designed the X-Mag and that they were machined by the owner of AGD Europe(?)

[Frizzle Fry]

I thought Simon designed the X-Mag and that they were machined by the owner of AGD Europe(?)

Right, but the concept of a unibody was developed in the early 90s. I'm not saying PTP designed the Xmag body, only that they came up with the unibody concept. Maybe calling it "Toms" was a bad choice, but the point is for years AGD made two piece models, and the final and arguably greatest product ended up being functionally similar to PTPs original design from years earlier.

PTP did work with AGD to design the form and function Emag frame, though, which was used on the Xmag.

[luke]

Yea, I was only indicating that I didn't think TK himself was responsible for the design of the X-Mag, the rest of what you said sounds spot on. :)

[GoatBoy]

More valuable to you, but the majority of mags now use threaded barrels. There are some "purest" out there, and i wouldn't begrudge them from keeping their twist locks, but the choices cor more modern barrels is limited. I remember in passing that AGD did have a slew of bodies made, but then the idea or implementation of the threaded body became pretty much standard. Look at why people went for PTP micromags? The aluminium bodies(not only could be anno'd for personal tastes) but had the better barrel choice(NOT necessarily the better barrel system).

Yeah we're having a failure in communication.

I agree with you, most people are on threaded barrels. Including me.

I don't covet the stainless bodies because I want to use TL barrels.

I covet the stainless bodies because they give me direct breech access. Most recently, I've used this to tinker with detents, and I knew like clockwork that the magic of PTP detents would come up in this discussion. I'm loaded for bear this time though.

Anyways, that'd be a shame to let all those bodies go to waste.

A bolt action gun? That is a novelty, pure and simple. Without firststrikes, it is even less of a novelty. Its an expensive paperweight. Maybe i am on the wrong coast for Palmers, but if they were great, where is the push for them to be at every field? Now i do love a blazer. I will get one, if i can find the right one, but i do not need it...

Now i do fully support the companies i like. AGD, ICD, ID. I believe in their products, use their products. I try to get people to also support them. I won't twist their arms if they don't use, yet will always be their suggesting them. If i can convert 1 person to what i use, then i am a happy person.

That part was all sarcasm from me. I don't hold Palmer's or CCM in much regard either. Figured it would be faster to demonstrate the ridiculous situation by highlighting their actual products. Both of the products I mentioned are pushing the limits of manufacturer contempt for its own customer base, and their customers eat it up and come back for more. Some people are too far gone to recognize it for what it is.

The part that gets me is the "support of manufacturers" bit.

Maybe I'm the most disloyal customer ever (probably), but I feel no loyalty to any manufacturer, and don't feel I need or should "support" them. If they make good products, then they don't need my "support". If they make retarded products... I'm not going to support them either.

I love the basic Automag system, but I don't support AGD.

There's an innocent side to this, but there's also kind of a malicious side to this, and it's kind of what we see here and elsewhere. "Support" in the case of bad products amounts to willfully overlooking problems, and there is a LOT of that going around.

The notion that the 2K9 reverse tanked PTP's previous products is kind of silly.

The products had flaws all this time, and people were just all too willing to overlook them because they apparently took some oath of fealty or something.

Some of you guys selling yourselves to the manufacturers are letting yourselves go for a little too cheap (and I'm not talking about you, Nobody). Or maybe not. Maybe that really is the limit of your value.