AGD really let me down at PSP (long)

[MarkM]

Originally posted by cphilip
Oh not at the field Mark. But next year I will introduce myself.

It was when I got back from Florida and it came up here on the forums. At WC I would have not associated with you for fear of reprisal! Just kidding ya mate.

Thats ok, I heard what was being said about me on the Tech stand Handy being trade connected isn't it more so when I am wearing "civvies". See ya in October.

[lamby]

Jester:

You have no idea what this complant is about do you? I use e-mode I pulled the trigger pins out so there was no possibility of bounce. I was screwed with this "bounce issue" in a small tourney before I got the flatline and could adjust my input pressure. That mostly fixed it bet better to be safe than sorry. I do not know about the x mags that the kids shoot but I do know that a lot of the teams that use e/x mags pulled the pins out so they are not screwed with. If I could disable the annoying RT effect I would but I can't so here is my problem. The ref MADE me put the god forsaken pin back in our 3 mags. Now the RT effect is back.

I think there is a good chance that I could have walked on the field the second time and had my pressure to 800 with the pin in without a problem but I did not want to take the chance. Because I know that bounce could {and rightfully so} disqualify our markers. I am not risking loosing 3 markers when we only had a 2 good spares (a cocker and a timmy) and an RTpro that would have had the same problem.

The failure is the interpritation of the rules: "trigger bounce" or "one shot per pull" (the one that will bag reactive triggers). Because without releasing pressure on the trigger it can "run away".

I think all markers based on reactive triggers should be banned straight out unless it is disabled (like removing the pin on an emag)It would make the rule much more enforcable and prevent teams like ours from getting screwed.

I will prob keep my emag, but as I said before, there will be a new marker in my arsonal that is not wearing AGD insignal. I am thinking a nice angel IR3/Speed should work just fine.. And I will never have to worry about "trigger bounce" or "one shot per pull" rules again. I can plan for a game instead of wasting an hour trying to make some ref happy just so we can use our markers.

Just a quick comment for magman,
There was always the chance that the ref could have been on the kids nuts too if the timing would have been right. He picked us to screw with; and he was right to do so. Maybe the kids lucked out. Next time I see Andy and Jason I will ask them what happened.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by lamby
He picked us to screw with; and he was right to do so.

Ok one last time....

No he was not. He should have allowed you to take the rods out and crono that way. Period. It's within the rules.

Reactive triggers realy have nothing to do with it. Bounce can be induced with them and can be cured from them.

[DjGruv]

Originally posted by cphilip


That Sir is incorrect. It should be...but it does not HAVE to be. As evident by several who have competed doing it in emode and I myself have tried it. Its not preferable but its possible and does function however a bit impared. It will get you in the game in better shape than this fellow ended up.

Then maybe you can explain that to every ref at every tourny I play in.

[lamby]

philip,

I hear you. It does not address the problem that it is happening and needs to end; be it a rule change that allows fully auto markers {will never happen}, or a total ban on reactive triggers. Either way I feel that I was screwed I still think mostly by AGD and partially by the ref. I think if I wad to enforce the rules I would have done the same thing he did. There is good chance, seeing and using other peoples emags, that I would prob dq most of them.

There is a guarenteed way to boot a emag if you wanted to...

1.) Put the gun in hybrid with the electronics on
2.) Pull the trigger real slow. It will fire electronicly, keep pulling the trigger slowly. it will fire again if the trigger pin is in and set out far enought that the marker works in manual mode!!

your marker just shot two balls in one trigger pull, and should be disqualified. It is sorta retarded because you have to pull the trigger so slowly but it is there {I talked to Tom about this too in person and on these forums}.. YET ANOTHER REASON to have the pin out. And another reason the marker needs to be reworked for pure tourney players like me.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by DjGruv



Then maybe you can explain that to every ref at every tourny I play in.

Now come on... EVERY REF IN EVERY TOURNEY? Never happened. I am certain its never come up in EVERY Tourney. But even if it did they flat out wrong. Ask em to show you it in the rules were it specifically address's a RT Mag and how it must be crono'd, Or even mentions an RT Mag trigger rod. Or for that matter mentions a Mag at all. Rules are Manufacturer blind. And they address what is a legal marker. I have never seen a specific marker mentioned in ANY rules I have ever read. It ain't there and any good ref outfit will pull the book out on you if he has a rule. Or he is not doing his job. There is no such reference nor requirement. Some fields make up rules as they go along. Without rhime or reason. But not proffesional events. They use NPPL or derived from NPPL definitons. I read em all and it's not there.

Even the proposed bounce rules are not there yet. And everyone is just interpreting the single shot single pull rules so far. Any possible way that you can make a marker pass that and which can not be reversed on the field without tools (which is illegal to carry on) is legal. And if it passes chrono then and shoots within the limits on and off its legal. Simple as that. Thats the rules. And those should be the rules. There is no need to redefine them or complicate them. Its fair for all. People doing these tournamets need to study the rules if they are overthinking these things.

[cphilip]

PSP Chrono rules copied and pasted...

PRE GAME CHRONOGRAPHING
3.21. All games will be preceded by a pregame chronographing session, pursuant to which each player on each team will be chronographed.
3.22. Multiple chronographs may be designated for each playing field so that in the event that a chronograph is not working, one which was available to the teams can be substituted.
3.23. The chrono judge will take a marker from a player and inspect it for the following:
(1) the presence of foreign matter in the barrel, feed port or loader;
(2) tightness of screws, barrel, tank and other working parts which can increase or decrease velocity;
(3) presence of valves or expansion chambers which can be turned on or off; all valves will be placed in the fully
open position;
(4) presence of external velocity adjusters which are not covered or fixed in place; and
(5) any other device, part or item which would enable a player to increase the muzzle velocity of the marker on the
game field without resorting to the use of tools.
3.24. Players whose markers do not pass such inspection will be informed and will be given an opportunity to remedy the situation, time permitting.
3.25. Players whose markers pass such inspection will step to the chronograph, and the chronograph judge shall chronograph the marker as it would or could be fired effectively on the game field at its maximum velocity. The chrono judge will fire three shots over the chronograph.
3.26. Markers will pass inspection if the average of the three shots is less than 295 feet per second and no one shot is greater than 300 feet per second.
3.27. Players whose markers do not pass such inspection will be so informed and will be given an opportunity to remedy the situation, time permitting.
3.28. All players whose markers have not passed the chronograph may elect to enter the field without a marker or be counted as eliminated.

It aint there!

Definitions of Markers... and guess what no mention of a Trigger rod being required! Again copied and pasted...



So show them that and see what they gotta say. Far as I am concerned the argument is over on that one.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
3.25. Players whose markers pass such inspection will step to the chronograph, and the chronograph judge shall chronograph the marker as it would or could be fired effectively on the game field at its maximum velocity. The chrono judge will fire three shots over the chronograph.

I think that says it all. The ref targeted the emags WITHOUT following the rules. I think that would also cover the very slow two shot "problem". The key word is effectively.

[cphilip]

Excellent point Hi! He could not require a rod cause its not a defined thing that is needed to define a marker system. A triger is but not a trigger ROD. It should have been allowed to take it out and then proceed to the field and played that way. It's the rules!

[pito189]

First off, lamby quit saying "trigger pin" it makes it sound like you took the trigger out. "trigger rod" is the correct term.

I have run, and will continue to run my E-Mag at 650 psi, using my Max Flow. If you were skipping shoots at 625, maybe you should get your Flatline looked out. Perhaps it is not working correctly, starving the valve.

Other than that. It's just tough luck, mark it up to Murphy's law, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and move on. :)

[845]

You should have played NPPL. PSP is all about the $$$. You should definately have argue with the ref. When refs act stupid make a big deal about it and bring in superiors, owners etc they will usually back down (if you are right of course).

[Troy]

lamby

How exactly did AGD screw you? If you read my previous post it answers your problem with this ref.

[billmi]

Originally posted by cphilip
Meph, this issue is not his fault. It's entirely on that Ref. He required something that cannot be required.

No, he required something that is required.

The proceedure for chronographing an RT valve paintgun with chronographs in common use today requires holding the sear back with the trigger then releasing fast and firing. This proceedure was defined by Airgun Designs and is accepted by major tournament series (NPPL, PSP, IAO, Pan Am, etc.)

This method is required to get a reading of the maximum velocity at which the gun will fire.

Since Frankie "Bag-o-donuts" was the chrono judge on the Shocktech field, and he knows the proceedure, he was requiring it.

If you do not use this method, the gun will chronograph at a velocity that is lower than the velocity it achieves while rapid firing. The alternative is using a chronograph that can measure the velocity of individual shots in a string. Due to cost and complexity, these are not in common use at most paintball tournaments (NXL is now using one) which is the reason AGD developed the hold and pull proceedure for the RT equipped 'mags.

To remove the trigger rod makes this method of chronographing impossible, and leaves a situation where a gun that chronos under 300 fps will shoot at over 300 fps during actual game play.

The problem arose because the gun was modified by the user from its original factory design (a part was removed.)

I have discussed the trigger legalities of the E-Mag with Bill Cookston, the Ultimate Judge for the PSP, IAO (and previously NPPL) and he's had no problem with the E-Mag trigger, as long as it was not adjusted down to the point where it became a runaway trigger in E, manual, or hybrid mode. As it ships stock, unless fed abnormally high pressure, the E-Mag is a legal gun. The problems arise when players tweak the trigger trying to get it close to the edge of what is legal. Sometimes they go past that edge. It seems silly to me that when someone takes a working, tourney legal gun, and then tweaks it to where it either no longer works (in the case with a lot of 'cocker tweaking that gives the gun a reputation of needing lots of work) or is no longer tourney legal, that they then turn around and blame the manufacturer and or tournament referees for the situation.

As for Meph's statement that a comparison of AGD to other companies who did have factory techs at the event by someone who didn't pony up the cash to pay for AGD to make an appearance... Why would paying for AGD to make an appearance come into play? The other paintgun manufacturers who did have techs on site didn't require players to pay a couple thousand dollars extra for their techs to be there.

As to where AGD does send techs, that's their business, IMHO. It doesn't make sense to send factory techs to an event where very few of their customers are. I don't expect them to show up at my local field where there are only a handfull of 'mags. Why should they go through the expense of sending a crew to service a similar number of guns anywhere else? IMHO, the dynamics of their market are changing, and there are probably more effective ways (both in terms of increased sales for AGD, and better support for their customers) than sending techs to every paintball tournament in the US.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Chronographing the RT.....

PSP Rules: http://www.pspevents.com/images/head...Rules_2003.pdf

3.25. Players whose markers pass such inspection will step to the chronograph, and the chronograph judge shall chronograph the marker as it would or could be fired effectively on the game field at its maximum velocity. The chrono judge will fire three shots over the chronograph.

In order to fire an Automag which has a ReTro valve as it could or would be fired effectively on the game field the referee must minimize the time between the opening of the on/off valve and the firing of the shot. This is necessary in order for the air in the accumulator to still be hot from atabiatic compression (the pressure will be higher when it is hotter) and deliver the maximum velocity under the gun's current settings.

Airgun Designs has defined the proceedure for chronographing 'mags with the RT and published it both online and in print:

http://www.airgun.com/rtchrono.shtml

The proper proceedure according to Airgun Designs for chronographing an Automag with an RT (ReTro, E-Mag, X-Mag, etc.) valve:

To record your highest rapid fire velocity:-
Fire a paintball and hold the trigger back.
Then release the trigger completely, and fire the next paintball as quickly as possible, once again holding the trigger back.
Repeat as necessary.
This procedure will simulate rapid fire, thus recording your highest possible rapid fire velocity.

To remove the factory installed trigger rod makes it impossible to perform this proceedure properly. If the paintgun can not be chronographed properly, it won't be allowed on the field.

Similarly if another paintgun of any other brand were modified in a way that the judge knew that they could not get a chronograph reading to accurately reflect the velocity "as it would or could be fired effectively on the game field," it would not be allowed either, whether that modification involved removal of a trigger rod, a velocity lock, changing of dwell times, etc. The rule does not need to specify trigger rods, because it specifies the way the gun can be fired on the field, and AirGun Designs has clearly defined the proceedure needed to measure the velocity to accurately reflect the velocities their product can achieve on the field.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by 845
You should have played NPPL. PSP is all about the $$$.

Can you please explain how that comes into play?
How does being "all about the $$$" affect the decision of a referee to require that the proceedure for chronographing a paintgun which is defined by the own paintgun's manufacturer?
Why is the one of the two leagues which costs less, per player to compete in make it "all about the $$$?"