breaking news ??? (runnaway, trigger bounce, NPPL rules etc)

[JEDI]

Re: breaking news ???

Originally posted by p8ntball72
LOL ..Jim drew on the subject of trigger bounce..

What does this have to do with Jim Drew? Other than the fact that his name is mentioned. Please don't start any unneeded drama.

[warpfeedmod]

Originally posted by PzYcO
is there anyway to get rid of trigger bounce on a xvalve?

tone down the input pressure so as not to allow so much "push" on the trigger rod. Makes it harder to "sweet spot".

At least that's what I'd do with my RTP when I was using it. I wasn't too fond of the "reactivity" of it when I first got it. I liked it mainly for the snappy trigger return.

Now on my Emag I can't even sweetspot it in e-mode or manual. Hybrid is another story altogether but I still have trouble sweetspotting it.

[tobz]

one thing

that I would like to mention is that ROF is not the issue here. The issue is safety. You can setup an eBlade cocker with so much bounce and so light of a pull that it will ACTUALLY GO INTO FULL AUTO if you drop the gun on the ground, or even set it down nicely, but "too hard".

The safety is the mainthing. When you start pulling your RT, imagine if you COULDN"T STOP THE FIRING. That is one of the main points. People put so much bounce on triggers that are so light already that the vibration of the gun will set the gun off again, sometimes whether or not a person's finger is on the trigger.

It's a safety issue. Imagine how effective barrel plugs/condoms are if more than one shot is fired with paint? It's possible to push condoms off, break strings, break stitching, there are huge safety issues here.

P.S. I still own 1 cocker + 1 mag and love them both. Keep it up AGD.

T.J.

-Safety first!

[thecavemankevin]

Originally posted by Miscue

NPPL rules should not be influenced by those who have a vested interest in the creation of such rules... the industry.

Somebody dropped the ball here.

Couldn't agree more!


As far as lessening the mechanicle trigger bounce of AGD products Tom said in a thread a couple weeks ago that they are in R&D to stop this so you can still crank the input pressure and not have our beloved bounce. If i remember correctly he said that they are working on a different size on/off pin and if they increase the diameter that should do it. It is just a matter of getting it to the exact right size. That thread is actually where the quote in my sig comes from :)

As far as padding, apperantly last year it became a rather large problem with many of the bigger events that teams were wearing two sets of elbow pads. One for there elbows and the other to protect there fore-arms and wrists from paintballs (thus makeing them bounce off). So this allowed players to lean out and expose their arms and gun, but the paint wouldn't break on their arms. When it caught on...the only way to fight back was to do it yourself because the other team had an unfair advantage. So how to handle this it the issue.


Tobz:
Have you ever seen and RT mag or Tippmann RT get dropped or set down and go into FA? I know i never have strictly due to the fact thay they already have a rather heavy pull. I understand the saftey issues with the old Shockers and so forth and completly agree it is good to write the rules to not allow them. I also think that the hybrid mode under these rules should be dissallowed. However, i don't think that the mechanicle bounce should be banned. I don't see the need for it. There are way to many electros that can still achive as fast ROF if not faster than their mechanicle counterparts, and i don't see them being witch hunted.


If roller triggers catch on, i wonder how they are going to try and ban those?

[tobz]

no, i haven't seen an RT do it..

but eBlade cockers is mainly what I was referring to, and some people that sweetspot the gun, when their sitting around the staging areas and such, if their finger actuates the trigger, and it goes runaway, it's just a safety thing. I agree, we don't need to ban all bounce, but there should be some way to do it safely, that's the main thing.

T.J.

[Cyberious]

I don't know about you guys but I'm getting a little tired of the NPPL's selective enforcement of the rules in general. Maybe they should consider paying more attention to enforcing the no-wipe rule instead. Seem like that is a much larger problem than trigger bounce. I would suspect that if they really enforced the rules on not wiping with some harsh penalties (i.e DQ'ing the player from the rest of the tourney)that there would a surprising number of Pros who are riding the bench. Cheating is one of the biggest issue holding back the sport not trigger bounce. I'm getting a little tired of going to play, seeing someone hit, and then watching them try and wipe the hit some how. They really need to focus on more important issues like wiping. It seems like the game is turning from a game of angles and inches into a game of angles, inches, and wiping. My two cents anyway.

[Kevmag]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Reactive triggers are illegal for NPPL.

So no E-Mags or RT's in the NPPL? Is this regardless of input pressure or "reactiveness". What about an E-Mag in Electric mode - where the trigger is not reactive?

[WickedAirSportz]

The NPPL has gone completely through all of the rules and amended, altered, added, and removed their contents.

If anyone attended the Huntington Beach event, you will know that the NPPL is strictly enforcing EVERYTHING in the rule book.

No trigger bounces. No reactive triggers of any kind are allowed. You are not allowed on to the field with a marker that bounces. Was there any on-field bouncing at the event? Nope! They were EXTREMELY strict about this, as well as other things new to the NPPL. Such as... you swear, you're gone. You argue, you're gone. You argue again, its a one for one. You argue again, its a one for one. You argue a 3rd time, and you forfit the match. You wipe, its a three for one. You argue about being pulled for a penalty, you might as well take someone with you (one for one). You flip off the crowd, that's a one for one too. You shoot hot (hand held check) you're gone. Over 310 and its a one for one.

ALL of these things happened at the Huntington Beach event, and ALL were enforced. This was the best reffed (and ruled) event I have ever witnessed. Guess what? With more than 50,000 people watching this event, and it being televised by the local media, we didn't need the normal crap we see in tournaments. I think the NPPL is doing an absolutely outstanding job. I expect the next Super-7 event in Las Vegas to be even more strict since the padded Dye jerseys (and other padded clothing) will no longer be alowed.

[Webmaster]

I said this once - and I will say it again...

Lets just be done with it and allow full auto?

The WHOLE evolution of this sport stems from the thinking "Argh, if i could have just shot faster I would have gotten that guy. I almost had him,just a few more shots!"

This goes from a Nel-spot to todays angels. Accuracy by volume is the only sure fire way to become more accurate!

I know there are some hesitations, but with full auto guns, our triggers can be set heavier and longer. No more hair triggers would be needed. The guns would be safer with those changes.

I know people fear over shooting or double eye injuries - but we already have over shooting (intentional and unintentional). I say develop a strap to secure goggles to the head and lets play.

Just my thoughts - I dont see how the NPPL will have the manpower to police this to be honest.

and never fear - as Tom said, they are all ready on it to remove the trigger bounce. In the mean time one can just reduce thier input pressure on some guns to get in the limits.

[WickedAirSportz]

Overshooting is a one for one to a three for one, at the ref's discretion (depending on how deliberate it was).

At the Huntington Beach event, there were 8-10 refs on every field. They have the manpower to run it.

[magman007]

Jeez Jim, now come on.



First off, shouldnt the NPPL have notified tom to say you know, your markers are illegal now? or shouldnt they give agd a shot to prove that the Retro valve (which, if you all remember, back when the RT came out, it was top dog, used all over the nppl and became a "nppl favorite") isnt illegal?



Tell me jim, why cant the retrovalve kick your finger back? you still have to loosen force for the trigger to return foreward.



Jim is there a contact e-mail that i can get so that i may inquire straight to Chuck about this?





also, the post kev is reffering to is my post about e-mags bouncing in hybrid. Tom said for e-mags they need to make a thinner on off pin. It shouldnt be too hard, and we should see it soon

[WickedAirSportz]

Anything that pushes your finger and trigger forward (or backward for that matter) is illegal. Guys with Tipmann reactive triggers had to remove them. There was only one mag in the entire Huntington Beach event, so I don't think that was an issue for AGD markers.

A trigger pull and release is required. The reactive unit pushes the trigger forward and does not really need a true "release". If you hold this with just the right amount of force, the trigger will bounce and act like it is in full auto. It's illegal, for every company that has them.

You can contact the NPPL directly via their website.

[hitech]

I have one for Bill Cookston.

It's [email protected]

I don't know if that will help or not. But there it is anyway.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by magman007
Jeez Jim, now come on.



First off, shouldnt the NPPL have notified tom to say you know, your markers are illegal now? or shouldnt they give agd a shot to prove that the Retro valve (which, if you all remember, back when the RT came out, it was top dog, used all over the nppl and became a "nppl favorite") isnt illegal?



Tell me jim, why cant the retrovalve kick your finger back? you still have to loosen force for the trigger to return foreward.

Agreed. The new rule specifically hurts the RT Pro/retromags. I don't care if they say electro's cannot bounce at all, fine by me... since an electro trigger is fast enough as it is. However... What the heck is the point of disallowing a reactive trigger in a MECHANICAL gun that CANNOT shoot as fast as an ELECTRO anyway? With or without a reactive trigger?

There is NO ROF issue.
There is NO safety issue.

So what the heck is the reason for this except a vested interest in other companies to HURT AirGun Designs' RTP. DISALLOW "Runaway" triggers, don't disallow "Reactive" triggers that are not reactive enough to go into Runaway... specifically on mechanical triggers, specifically on the RT Pro.

This is outright stupidity. And you guys know FULL well that this specifically hurts the RT Pro which has been around in the NPPL for a long time. Simple precise wording of the rule could eliminate the "bounce" issue in electro guns, but allow the mechanical RTP to stay (which can easily be checked for a questionable runaway trigger... WAY obvious... subjective testing suffices)

This "Oversight" is intentional, unless you guys are just that stupid... which I do not believe is the case. I think it's more likely that you just don't care so long as it doesn't effect you... perhaps a chuckle at who this rule adversely effects... a competitor.

This is what you guys should have done: Defined an illegal trigger return to trigger pull ratio... and adjust this ratio depending on the number of ounces required for a trigger pull. Maybe something along these lines...

If the RTP has roughly a 2:1 ratio with a trigger that needs a pound or so... Why throw this into the same group as electros with a trigger measured in ounces and not pounds? The problem you are trying to correct with bouncing electros DOES NOT exist with the RT Pro, so why include it? Nonsense, that's why!

/me calls for written protest against the rule... requesting revision to not include mech guns that do not demonstrate the problems that they are trying to prevent.

[Doc Nickel]

Tell me jim, why cant the retrovalve kick your finger back? you still have to loosen force for the trigger to return foreward.

-Not necessarily. The pad of your finger, being somewhat squishy, acts as a spring. You apply just enough force to cause the trigger to "break", and either the pneumatic/mechanical RT effect pushes back slightly against your finger, or the recoil of the gun "shakes" it enough to cause the same thing.

That's why any "sweet spotting" requires you to put just enough pressure on the trigger- you typically can't just yank it and let the RT/recoil do the rest to get the "bouncing" full-auto emulation.

Doc.