breaking news ??? (runnaway, trigger bounce, NPPL rules etc)

[Miscue]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
There was only one mag in the entire Huntington Beach event, so I don't think that was an issue for AGD markers.

Humm... only one blue eyed kid on the playground, so that's ok that we discount him completely.

A trigger pull and release is required. The reactive unit pushes the trigger forward and does not really need a true "release". If you hold this with just the right amount of force, the trigger will bounce and act like it is in full auto. It's illegal, for every company that has them.

Subjective idiocy. Here is the problem: A runaway trigger, not a reactive trigger. Declaw the cat. Don't kill the cat... to protect your furniture.

I think this rule is dirty pool.

[thecavemankevin]

It wouldn't be hard to amend the NPPL rules to say "any electronic trigger bounce is illegal"

[demonguy8]

Right idea.. wrong methods

I am quite happy to see that the Nppl is finally getting better rule enforcement, but disallowing markers that are NOT DESIGNED TO GO INTO RUNAWAY WHEN FUNCTIONING PROPERLY is not only rediculus but is downright hippocritical when ANY adjustable triggered ELECTRO is capable of the same thing (goin into runaway when improperly set) yet are allowed!!

IMHO if you want to do something that actually helps SAFETY... BAN the use of force-fed loaders such as the halos, the evo2, and the warp feed. Gravity fed loaders are limited to a MAXIMUM of 12.5 bps which is SLOWER than MANY PEOPLE who play paintball are capable of shooting anyway. IT IS THE NUMBER BALLS PER SECOND THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THIS SPORT! (not that it will ever be changed with VENDORS making the decisions regarding the league since more paint= more money)

By effictivly limiting the Balls per second that the markers are capable of you have not only effectivly limited the potential for overshooting (which I think it would be safe in assuming the saftey implications of overshooting are the underlying basis for the RTban issue), but you would have also made it easier to set a CLEAR DEFINITION on what exactly overshooting is, since you know the maximum rate at which players are able to fire (12.5 bps).

Now my question is didnt the NPPL have a rule against force fed loaders to begin with? If so, It is either not being enforced, or it was removed by industry leaders eager to try and line their pockets with more money while they themselves seem to be the ones carrying on about safety..
And wasnt the NPPL split about making the league better as a whole WITHOUT having to rely purely on input from vendors? Any way you look at it this shows the hippocracy of the industry.
I very agree with Miscue.. someone dropped the ball here..

[WickedAirSportz]

The bottom line is very simple. Any trigger can be setup so that it bounces. These are not allowed on the field... period.

A trigger pull and release are required under the rules. If you just hold a trigger lightly and the marker goes into full auto, it is illegal.

The only way to make the Tipmann markers legal during the Huntington Beach event was to remove the reactive trigger. If the chrono judge grabs your marker (holding it lightly), and gently pulls on the trigger, and sees it shoots two or more times it is going to be illegal. We came up with several methods to check this, and they were all being used.

This ruling affects all brands of all markers. There were no special cases or considerations.

Anything that aids the return of the trigger (other than a spring) is going to be illegal, and that was brought up at the meeting agreed upon. It is simply too easy to make a reactive trigger bounce by applying a certain amount of pressure, and never actually releasing the trigger.

[Jack & Coke]

"RUN-AWAY"
"SWEET-SPOTTING"
"TRIGGER BOUNCE"

FYI regarding "RUN-AWAY"

From:http://www.airsoftretreat.com/



Here's what happens when your gun (real) goes "RUN-AWAY".

Also, watch his trigger finger...

Click here to download the clip!

(2.6 MB MPEG)

[WickedAirSportz]

Sweet spotting as you have defined it above is illegal. The ref could grab the marker and find this pretty easily, and not be allowed on the field.

The idea here people is safety. If someone can pull the trigger 18bps, that is one thing and obviously not real common. It's another thing to sweet spot with a Halo-B and shoot 20+bps into someone's face. Imagine going over to bunker someone and hit them 15 times point blank because you now the sweet spot on your trigger so well you can unleash that kind of fire power on demand. This is a safety hazard... period.

The NPPL rules are all about safety. We get enough welts just playing the game... we don't need to have the element of possible permanent injury or death.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
The bottom line is very simple. Any trigger can be setup so that it bounces. These are not allowed on the field... period.

A trigger pull and release are required under the rules. If you just hold a trigger lightly and the marker goes into full auto, it is illegal.

The only way to make the Tipmann markers legal during the Huntington Beach event was to remove the reactive trigger. If the chrono judge grabs your marker (holding it lightly), and gently pulls on the trigger, and sees it shoots two or more times it is going to be illegal. We came up with several methods to check this, and they were all being used.

This ruling affects all brands of all markers. There were no special cases or considerations.

Anything that aids the return of the trigger (other than a spring) is going to be illegal, and that was brought up at the meeting agreed upon. It is simply too easy to make a reactive trigger bounce by applying a certain amount of pressure, and never actually releasing the trigger.

What? Anything other than a "spring?" What about a return magnet? This ruling has just made the entire line of AGD products except for the classic mag... against the rules!

"The bottom line is very simple. Any trigger can be setup so that it bounces. These are not allowed on the field... period."

Keyword: "can"

What is the purpose of this rule?

Safety? Fairness?

DEMONSTRATE that a properly setup RTP/EMag is NOT safe. DEMONSTRATE that a properly setup RTP/EMag is NOT fair.

Mind you, ANY gun that is not properly setup can be either unsafe, or unfair... I'm not singling out the RTP.

Setup the rules that a gun must be DEMONSTRATED to be unsafe or unfair. What the heck is the point of making a gun illegal if it CANNOT be DEMONSTRATED to be unsafe or unfair. Isn't that the WHOLE POINT of the rule? Let's throw some guy in prison because we FEEL like it, not because we have a demonstratable reason! Sure, why not!

If I hand a ref my RTP or EMag... he will NOT be able to get it to fire uncontrollably in an unsafe, or unfair manner. So why the heck should I not be able to use these?

[JEDI]

Come on guys! You're all playing dumb and innocent. Do you honestly believe the NPPL is gonna test the ratio of pull to release, compared to the pounds per mass angle-of-the-dangle? This is a tournament, not an experiment in the Deep Blue forum. They need to come with rules that blanket all possibilities. Their not going to check the input pressure, and trigger pull of EVERY retro mag user. Stop being babies.

I've played SEVERAL games against fellow mag shooters that "shot very fast" *wink wink*. I can't tell you how many conversations I've over heard about "hybrid" mode, and how it "practically shoots for me". Its not some crusade against AGD, its a way to standardise safety. If you some how feel wronged here, maybe you're a little guilty, or need to "lower your input pressure."

[Miscue]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Sweet spotting as you have defined it above is illegal. The ref could grab the marker and find this pretty easily, and not be allowed on the field.

The idea here people is safety. If someone can pull the trigger 18bps, that is one thing and obviously not real common. It's another thing to sweet spot with a Halo-B and shoot 20+bps into someone's face. Imagine going over to bunker someone and hit them 15 times point blank because you now the sweet spot on your trigger so well you can unleash that kind of fire power on demand. This is a safety hazard... period.

The NPPL rules are all about safety. We get enough welts just playing the game... we don't need to have the element of possible permanent injury or death.

Then set a freakin BPS cap!!!
Then set a freakin BPS cap!!!
Then set a freakin BPS cap!!!
Then set a freakin BPS cap!!!
Then set a freakin BPS cap!!!
Then set a freakin BPS cap!!!

Are you guys retarded or something?

[WickedAirSportz]

Miscue,

Spring, magnet, or any thing that does not apply enough force to PUSH your finger forward.

Come one guys, quit playing dumb here. If the trigger is not MANUALLY being released and repulled, its not going to be allowed on the field. You can't have an apparatus of any kind pushing your finger/trigger forward. You have to release the trigger yourself, under your own power.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by JEDI
Come on guys! You're all playing dumb and innocent. Do you honestly believe the NPPL is gonna test the ratio of pull to release, compared to the pounds per mass angle-of-the-dangle?

No, they will not... it's too much work. That is the WHOLE point. It is left to subjectivity.

[WickedAirSportz]

If I hand a ref my RTP or EMag... he will NOT be able to get it to fire uncontrollably in an unsafe, or unfair manner. So why the heck should I not be able to use these?

Can the refs make it shoot more than one time when holding pressure on the trigger and not releasing it? If so, its illegal. This same thing applies to electros too. There are guys with hair triggers where you don't release the trigger and it fires like it's in full auto. That is illegal.

Think safety here people.

As far as a rate of fire cap goes, that will have to be looked into. I can tell you from a political point of view, the only way to inforce this would be through limiting the hopper. That of course would upset the hopper manufacturers... and if you think the paint manufacturers are going to back a rate of fire limit, you're nuts. :)

[Miscue]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Miscue,

Spring, magnet, or any thing that does not apply enough force to PUSH your finger forward.

Ok, that's great then.

Come one guys, quit playing dumb here. If the trigger is not MANUALLY being released and repulled, its not going to be allowed on the field. You can't have an apparatus of any kind pushing your finger/trigger forward. You have to release the trigger yourself, under your own power.

Ok... I see what the rule details. I understand that the PURPOSE of the rule is fairness and safety. But I do not understand the rule's lack of precision... and how it sloppily extends to a mechanical gun like an unmodified RTP that is NOT unfair (There's no way you can hit electro ROF even with retro trigger) and is NOT unsafe (Every shot is deliberate).

A reactive trigger is unsafe and unfair only in some situations. NPPL needs to make the distinction.

[Dubstar112]

Jim you say there was only one mag at that event so it shouldnt be a problem for AGD.

It is a problem. Everyone wants a tournament marker. Whether they play rec ball, or actual tournaments is irrellevant now. They want that "Tournament marker" seal of aproval. Now that you are basically outlawing the flagship tournament marker of a companys fleet.. its like saying a mustang is illeagal because it has the ability to break the speed limit. Thats how I see it.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz


Can the refs make it shoot more than one time when holding pressure on the trigger and not releasing it? If so, its illegal. This same thing applies to electros too. There are guys with hair triggers where you don't release the trigger and it fires like it's in full auto. That is illegal.

Think safety here people.

As far as a rate of fire cap goes, that will have to be looked into. I can tell you from a political point of view, the only way to inforce this would be through limiting the hopper. That of course would upset the hopper manufacturers... and if you think the paint manufacturers are going to back a rate of fire limit, you're nuts. :)

Make it shoot more than once? No. Can it simulate FA even for a moment? Nope. Can anybody shoot over 15bps with it? Maybe some freak of nature with hypertensile tendons. But, my trigger is still reactive. What's unsafe about this? It's perfectly safe.

My take from this ruling is that... even if the ref cannot demonstrate unsafe/unfair qualities by test firing... it is immediately illegal because of a reactive trigger. Cod swallop.

Since when does rule making have anything to do with the approval of manufacturers? This is EXACTLY why we need the industry OUT of NPPL rule making.