breaking news ??? (runnaway, trigger bounce, NPPL rules etc)

[Miscue]

BTW, autoresponse is not the same thing as a reactive trigger.

[WickedAirSportz]

Answer this: does the RT push the trigger forward or not?

If so, then by definition of the current trigger rule, anything that is not a manual pull and release is illegal.

I personally don't care if RT's and Tippmans reactives are allowed or not... as long as they don't shoot multiple shots when gently squeezing the trigger.

I am just reporting what was decided at the rules meeting prior to Huntington Beach. Obviously, as more information is presented to the NPPL, the rules will be a bit more clear about what is allowed and what isn't.

My concern is not for manually operated triggers anyways, I was there to help the NPPL come up with the testing methods for detecting trigger bounce.

[Jerhew]

with all due respect Mr Drew
have you ever learned to use or seen a properly functioning rt valve being fired by someone who knows how to use it?
it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with making the trigger bounce or runnaway
it has a lot to do with getting into a rhythm
a rhythm that involves definite pulling of the trigger each and every time
yes it does help increase the functional bps of the marker(although still beneath the range of an electro's bps)
but it does so in a fashion that in no way relates to anything you have just said

if you like, ill let you try mine

ps we wouldn't want to shoot the messenger if he didn't keep adding his own foolish uninformed opinions

[cledford]

Originally posted by Miscue
BTW, autoresponse is not the same thing as a reactive trigger.

Someone with a little more *experience* might know this...

-Calvin

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Answer this: does the RT push the trigger forward or not?

If so, then by definition of the current trigger rule, anything that is not a manual pull and release is illegal.

I personally don't care if RT's and Tippmans reactives are allowed or not... as long as they don't shoot multiple shots when gently squeezing the trigger.

I am just reporting what was decided at the rules meeting prior to Huntington Beach. Obviously, as more information is presented to the NPPL, the rules will be a bit more clear about what is allowed and what isn't.

My concern is not for manually operated triggers anyways, I was there to help the NPPL come up with the testing methods for detecting trigger bounce.

and by the way i think we all understand this point completely...and according to Tom Kaye...the rules will be clarified so that rt's will be legal as long as they fire one ball per pull
what i take exception to is this

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz

I don't think that the reactive triggers help you shoot faster unless they are setup like most do (damn near full auto when you lightly pull the trigger). Let's be real here... reactive was not invented because people have lazy fingers, it was invented to allow multiple shot bursts by squeezing it lightly. Go back through magazines and internet data - you will find the main selling feature to be just that!

to put it as kindly as possible...
you've proved your ignorance on the subject

[Jack & Coke]

*** This is not a rip into Jim. His questions are very good and bring to light many valid issues.

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Answer this: does the RT push the trigger forward or not?

Answer - YES... as do ALL MARKERS.

- Level 7 mags also push back. Although at a much lower force than the RT. Without it, the marker can not reset.

Ask your question again, but with a different gun...

Answer this: does the Timmy push the trigger forward or not?

Answer - YES... via spring force. (trigger return spring or micro switch spring)

If you don't have anything pushing the trigger forward, your gun will not work. Duh!

The real question should be:


"Does the -insert marker here- push the trigger forward, resetting the trigger firing cycle, with a greater force than was required to fire the marker ?"

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz

I personally don't care if RT's and Tippmans reactives are allowed or not... as long as they don't shoot multiple shots when gently squeezing the trigger.

Amen! It took me sometime adjusting my GZ so that it would not bounce.

Answer this: Where there more incidents and concerns regarding trigger bounce on electros which use a micro-switch triggering design (Timmy, Impy, Angel, Matrix, etc.), than a RT style valve (AutoMAG, Tippy)?

Of ALL of the markers caught with trigger bounce, how many had firing designs based on:

• micro-switch
• HE sensor
• Magno-Optical
• Laser beam tripping
• RT valve
• Reactive piston

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz

My concern is not for manually operated triggers anyways, I was there to help the NPPL come up with the testing methods for detecting trigger bounce.

That great to hear! I hope you guys came up with some good methods.

What are some examples of how you think the refs should test for trigger bounce?

I think we can make some good progress in this line of discussion.

Thanks for your time! :)

[WickedAirSportz]

I think you're right... there has to be some definition about the trigger pull and release force.

The NPPL sees "reactive" trigger as those that have some mechanical aide to push the trigger back. I don't mean a simple spring, I mean a piston, plunger, or some other type of pneumatic assistance. Perhaps that should be the wording "pneumatic assisted". What the NPPL is trying to eliminate are those guys that do setup their marker illegally and are trying to get away with it.

I don't claim to be an expert on the Mag (quite the opposite), so I have no clue how much force is applied. In reality, there are very few mags used in any tournament that I have attended. There are more Tippman Model 98s with reactive trigger, and those were the marker brought up in the rules committee meeting.

Do ANY of the mags have a pneumatic assisted trigger return mechanism? That is what is in quesiton, as that would be where the trigger pull/release rule would need to be changed (or abided by if left as-is).

[WickedAirSportz]

P.S. The testing procedures are suppose to be relatively secret. There are several of them, and I believe that the time frame that Dave has given (one minute rule) is fair for everyone.

[Dayspring]

Just remember though- with the RT Mags, you DO get a full and complete trigger cycle. The sear will lock after each pull. (on a correctly working RT Mag)

So in theory- that's one ball per pull, b/c the valve pushes the trigger back to full locked and firing position.

[Miscue]

The on/off pin in all AGD markers pushes the sear/trigger rod back into position.

The difference with the Retro is that the gun's input pressure is the force applied on the on/off pin (which is why you can adjust this force by adjusting HPA)... pushing the sear back with much greater force than the classic valve. The tapered pin is what allows for the trigger pull force to be about half of what the air puts on the untapered end.

Also, when the sear latches... the bolt puts pressure against the sear... which puts resistance against trigger pull...

An AGD retro trigger is not similar to the Tippmann... the Tippmann has a wild trigger, and understandably is not allowed.

The AGD trigger is completely controlled, unless the gun is malfunctioning...

[Timmee]

One of the big differences between the M98 RT and the Automag RT systems is the fact that the M98 RT's trigger has a spring AND the pneumatic cylinder pushing on the trigger (fitting the term pneumatic assisted). The Automag RT does not. That pneumatic force is the ONLY thing pushing on the sear/trigger rod to reset the trigger.

[WickedAirSportz]

Well, that is good to know.

Dave needs to know this. As I stated, the term "reactive" was immediately equated to the Tippman trigger. There are very few mags being used in the PanAm, PSP, and NPPL events. Because of this, there really is not much known about the mag (at least by the rules committee members that were in attendance, many of which are old school players). I think the mag could have been singled out if it were not for discussions like these. This is why we have discussions and rules committees meet... and God knows if there is a problem, you can count of the AO group to set you straight! LOL!

[Miscue]

Another thing... an issue with the classic valve is that it is easy to short stroke when trying to pull the trigger quickly.

I'd say... the RetroValve aids in a complete trigger return first and foremost. Faster trigger speeds is a side-effect in that the user doesn't have to make nearly as much effort in completely releasing it. And if you've ever shot a classic mag... you'll see what I mean. Takes a skilled hand to shoot that thing at 8bps or so... I personally cannot do it, the trigger is too difficult for me.

So, in this case... the goal of this reactive trigger system is not, and never was to create a bouncing trigger that can shoot multiple times. The goal was to significantly reduce the amount of work needed to fire the thing.

You have to jack up the input pressure and/or screw with the on/off pin and take it outta spec to make it shoot in runaway. And, runaway is highly undesireable in a mag... it is not predictable, it cannot be induced purposely with consistency.... it can eat up bolts and sears... and the valve might not recharge correctly because the parts aren't making their full motions like they're supposed to. And, before L10... you'd chop paint like mad.

The only way a mag can purposely do FA for sustained periods is to have a spring loaded trigger appropriately balanced against the trigger return pressure. Otherwise... a reactive mech agd trigger WILL NOT fire more than once in any circumstances besides user-induced malfunction.

[Jack & Coke]

Miscue,

I respectfully disagree with your opinion on the M98RT.

The M98RT is not "wild".

I have a M98RT and a RetroMAG.

When setup to shoot as fast as possible (i.e. Sweet-spotting), the M98RT is actually easier and safter to CONTROL than a RT MAG setup for SWEET-SPOTTING.

You can actually control the BPS on the M98RT by the amount of pressure you put on the trigger. When I mean control, I mean faster, slower, etc. Of course to a certain degree.

However, with the RT MAG on SWEET-SPOTTING, you only get UBER FAST BPS.

SWEET-SPOT the trigger on a RT MAG, and it's instant 18-20 BPS.

SWEET-SPOT the trigger on a M98RT, and the rate of fire depends on how hard you hold the pressure on the trigger.

I know this because I play with my M98RT and RetroMAG like this ALL the time. (only with friends of course :))

Of course you have you're opinion against the M98RT. I can't change it. I'm just sharing MY view since I play a lot with them both.

(I trust you won't take this as a flame )

Jim,

M98RT: the marker is STILL OPERATIONAL if you remove the forward pushing force. It is NOT VITAL for proper marker operation. The RT piston ONLY enhances the operation of the marker.

RT MAG: the marker is NOT OPERATIONAL if you remove the forward pushing force. It is VITAL for proper marker operation.

Cheers!

[Miscue]

Whoops. I stand corrected... seeing that I've never used an RT Tippy. I'm trying to remember where I got that idea... Now I'm really irritated with myself.