breaking news ??? (runnaway, trigger bounce, NPPL rules etc)

[AGD]

Guys,

Don't get all worked up over this right now. Remember, we are not the cause of the problem we are just getting caught in the fallout.

I have been in touch with Chuck Hensch today and will be talking to the Scrutenizer probably this weekend. The official rules are not written yet and the intention is to ban triggers that run away. Runaway triggers have ALWAYS been illegal in NPPL thats why our markers are tested at the cronos. We have traditionally been let in if they didn't bounce on their own.

In 1996 this same thing happened with Turbo Mode and we were caught up in that too. For ONE torunament our guns were banned along with the Shocker until a ruling could be forumulated. Unfortunately the idea that our guns are illegal haunts us to this day.

The best thing you all can do is not say "they made it illegal that sucks". We need to promote the fact that the NPPL is still forumulating the rule and we are not the problem. I am quite confident that all of this will get worked out to everyone satisfaction.

Stand by for more info. Chuck promised me they will publish an official ruling specifically on our guns when the time comes.

AGD

[LaW]

Originally posted by AGD
Guys,

Don't get all worked up over this right now. Remember, we are not the cause of the problem we are just getting caught in the fallout.

I have been in touch with Chuck Hensch today and will be talking to the Scrutenizer probably this weekend. The official rules are not written yet and the intention is to ban triggers that run away. Runaway triggers have ALWAYS been illegal in NPPL thats why our markers are tested at the cronos. We have traditionally been let in if they didn't bounce on their own.

In 1996 this same thing happened with Turbo Mode and we were caught up in that too. For ONE torunament our guns were banned along with the Shocker until a ruling could be forumulated. Unfortunately the idea that our guns are illegal haunts us to this day.

The best thing you all can do is not say "they made it illegal that sucks". We need to promote the fact that the NPPL is still forumulating the rule and we are not the problem. I am quite confident that all of this will get worked out to everyone satisfaction.

Stand by for more info. Chuck promised me they will publish an official ruling specifically on our guns when the time comes.

AGD

Thanks Tom for the info!

[CpSuPeRkId]

sheesh, tom just said what i meant to say in my last post. im sure all the rt mags will be let in if they dont go into run away mode and the ref himself cant bounce the trigger. you guys just automatically think that its an attack towards AGD or something if TK wasnt invited to attend that meeting. everything will be fine guys!!! chill!!!! its 100% obvious to everyone out there that any electro is more dangerous and alot faster than a rt mag. they arent going to make a move so stupid. jim might have made it sound like they are specifically banning pressurized return triggers but im sure he didnt mean it like that. like i said, give the guy a break. he hasnt been in paintball that long but he is making boards for timmys and soon to be impys, vikings, and excals. i think since he is making lots of the new age electronics for the popular markers of today, he sure does deserve to be part of that meeting. its also obvious that the nppl will be targeting guns that shoot more than 1 shot per trigger pull. so if the ref cant do that to your rt than you are good. if your rt mag does do this then it is a problem and it doesnt deserve to be on the field. but for the most part they should be fine. so my point to all of this is to chill out, and like tom said, let the rules get worked out and dont flame the nppl for something that isnt even set. can u guys make a huge paintbal organization that would be a bigger success than the nppl??? probably not. so dont flame just yet.

as for this whole bps limit, hopper limit,full auto. are u guys kidding me??? let the game be how it is. if somebody wants to waste paint like a mad man at 18bps then let him be. it only takes 1 shot to get someone out. full auto at a capped 13 bps would do ALOT more on the field than 18bps semi so i would never want that. with full auto its super easy to keep paint straighter. you know how easy it would be to snap shoot??? any skill thats in paintball would just disappear. it would all be whoever has more guts to make moves.as for a semi only but bps cap. its already been tried but no companies stuck to it. thats why aka markers were capped at 13bps for awhile. they were the only ones that stuck to their word only to find out that nobody else did, so they raised their boards up. fps limits are just as bad of an idea IMO. who wnats to play paintball at 230 fps??? it wouldnt even be fun shooting a paintball gun at that speed when u can practically catch the paintball, not to mention the paintballs would never break on your opponent. and lastly the hopper restriction. thats the worst idea of all. we have been bragging forever how fast our markers can cycle but until now we havent been able to shoot paint through them. now u guys say to get rid of fast hoppers?? just cuz u want your rt mags on the fields before fast hoppers???? im not meaning to flame here, just trying to express what i feel on this topic.

[magman007]

OK, thanks alot tom! Also, if you re read, hows the new on off going? im still interested in gettin one for my sfl e-mag... Thanks for your time to respond to this, i think we were all a little worried

[Jerhew]

ya sorry
i think we get a little reactionary when someone flat out says rt's are all illegal

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

referring to a post by WAS earlier; You said something like being able to hit 18bps in runaway on an rt pro. Are you kidding me?? Unless you specially mod your gun (like Butterfingers did for that video of the ReTro valve at 21bps) you aren't gettin over 14bps in runaway. When i had my rt pro, i could hit runaway with the input at 900 psi, never hit that in a game, and never got over 13 bps with it. Now, I've seen people pull 18-20 on ir3's, seen 15bps on a cocker with a dye slider frame (not elecro!), seen 20+ on a race cocker, seen 17 on an eblade cocker, so what's the big deal about a mag that can hit 10-15 in runaway, and 6-14 regulary? I guarentee you when i had my matrix or adrenalin angel i could outshoot ALMOST any rt pro. At one time, i was playing around with the angel's trigger, i got it to shoot in full auto by pulling the trigger and quickly letting it go, that hit 19 bps according to the lcd, and you could let go of the gun and it woluld still go! Show me an rt pro that can do what i described with the angel, and i'll throw away my micro emag and buy a timmy with an equalizer board!

[sneakyhacker420]

Originally posted by PzYcO
is there anyway to get rid of trigger bounce on a xvalve?

go buy a .765 RTP on/off pin... the longer the on/off pin, the less reactive, the shorter, the more reactive

i personally use the .745 custom pin that i have, it is just reactive enough, and it doesnt go into runaway easily... for me atleast

[Cyberious]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420

go buy a .765 RTP on/off pin... the longer the on/off pin, the less reactive, the shorter, the less reactive

Huh?

[Jack & Coke]

He wrote "less reactive" twice.

He obviously meant:

"...the longer the on/off pin, the less reactive, the shorter, the more reactive..."

[sneakyhacker420]

sorry, it was 1:00 AM here and i was really tired and this was the last post of the day... but a longer on/off pin does make it harder to go into runaway

[SyntaxError]

Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG
Now, I've seen people pull 18-20 on ir3's, seen 15bps on a cocker with a dye slider frame (not elecro!), seen 20+ on a race cocker, seen 17 on an eblade cocker

No way, I'm sorry. MAYBE the 17 on an Eblade, they're fast an easy to shoot, but there is no way anyone is pulling anywhere near 18 to 20+ BPS. By the way, Angel boards lie, there is no WAY I'm hitting the ROF that it says on the LCD, it only measures the time between your two fastest shots, so if someone managed to pull two shots quickly it might read 16-17. And I highly doubt anyone hit 15 on a cocker, thats pretty near impossible. More likely it was about 10, people exaggerate their rates of fire, and underestimate the speed of 10-11 BPS, which is more likely what was hit.

[thegear]

Originally posted by Cyberious
I don't know about you guys but I'm getting a little tired of the NPPL's selective enforcement of the rules in general. Maybe they should consider paying more attention to enforcing the no-wipe rule instead. Seem like that is a much larger problem than trigger bounce. I would suspect that if they really enforced the rules on not wiping with some harsh penalties (i.e DQ'ing the player from the rest of the tourney)that there would a surprising number of Pros who are riding the bench. Cheating is one of the biggest issue holding back the sport not trigger bounce. I'm getting a little tired of going to play, seeing someone hit, and then watching them try and wipe the hit some how. They really need to focus on more important issues like wiping. It seems like the game is turning from a game of angles and inches into a game of angles, inches, and wiping. My two cents anyway.

How true, get with the fricking program NPPL.
I would like to see some of the "PRO" play fair for a change and see how well they do.


The Gear out

[Whitt_travis]

Ohh Boy... Here we go, heh.

Alright, this is how I see it. I'm not too worried about all this, because you can always look at other guns on the market. Heck, NPPL may just be a stock class tournament with how picky and choosey they are becoming...

Most angels, besides opta-boards fire on a microswitch system, and trigger bounce off the microswitch is definately noticeable. Trigger bounce is such a vague area, and to single out Airgun Design products is definately someone's marketing technique at discouraging users to buy AGD products. A cowardly approach in my mind...

But, whatever, if it goes through? We'll just start a Automags.Org Militia. Who's with me? :-)

[WickedAirSportz]

jim might have made it sound like they are specifically banning pressurized return triggers but im sure he didnt mean it like that.

Yes, I did. By the current definition of a firing cycle a trigger is manually pulled and released.

During the course of this discussion, auto response (reactive) triggers were brought up and immediately were determined to not fit into the definition of a trigger pull because the release is not manual (there is substantial force applied directly to the trigger). Which I agree is the case. I was just reporting what was discussed and ruled upon at the meeting. Don't shoot the messenger.

Personally, I don't care what the definition of a firing cycle is as long as only one shot is fired with every pull and release. I don't think that the reactive triggers help you shoot faster unless they are setup like most do (damn near full auto when you lightly pull the trigger). Let's be real here... reactive was not invented because people have lazy fingers, it was invented to allow multiple shot bursts by squeezing it lightly. Go back through magazines and internet data - you will find the main selling feature to be just that!

[cledford]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz

Let's be real here... reactive was not invented because people have lazy fingers, it was invented to allow multiple shot bursts by squeezing it lightly. Go back through magazines and internet data - you will find the main selling feature to be just that!

I doubt Tom Kaye would agree with this - but then again he's a guy who "walks the walk" not "talks the talk." I think his commitment to safety is bar none in the industry - and his actions are well known to those who've been involved in paintball for a while.

Jim you still have no concept of the AGD reactive trigger - your statement shows that. There is no way to make a RT/RTP to "shoot bursts by squeezing lightly" unless you *break* the marker - and then it is a one way process that does not provide "select fire,' the marker either runs away or it doesn't. Anyone would be able to tell and the user would have a blender. Here you are again speaking from a position of "authority" about something you have no knowledge of.

Why don't you provide some of the information you suggested is out there in the "magazines and Internet data" - I think you're making it up.

-Calvin