breaking news ??? (runnaway, trigger bounce, NPPL rules etc)

[Dubstar112]

Originally posted by Miscue


Make it shoot more than once? No. Can it simulate FA even for a moment? Nope. Can anybody shoot over 15bps with it? Maybe some freak of nature with hypertensile tendons. But, my trigger is still reactive. What's unsafe about this? It's perfectly safe.

My take from this ruling is that... even if the ref cannot demonstrate unsafe/unfair qualities by test firing... it is immediately illegal because of a reactive trigger. Cod swallop.

Since when does rule making have anything to do with the approval of manufacturers? This is EXACTLY why we need the industry OUT of NPPL rule making.

Miscue, I agree with the industry needs to be out of the rule making statement. You have to deliberatley pull the trigger to make the reactiveness effective. You might as well ban all blowbacks from tournaments, because when they sputter, they fire more than one ball, and even that is more uncontrollable.

[cphilip]

Yes but we all know that that "Just enough" is easy enough to create on the side lines or at the Crono station but almost impossible to do in the heat of the game.

Most you you are getting defensive about the AGD products. I was at WC and saw several other marker manufacturers markers "Bounce" by one method or the other. I do not believe it is directed at AGD. And in fact all of the AGD markers I saw where the Crono judge questioned the bounce happening were adjusted right there and made legal. One other marker of another manufacturer that was bouncing could not be and was disallowed. I do not understand these other markers enough to know how they get them to do it but they do. I believe WAS can shed some light on that as he makes a product that indeed allows people to do this! I know he doesn't make it for that reason but it does and its common knowledge among them on how to get it to happen using his board. Its not an AGD marker only issue. Even though its well known they can be made to do this it is equally well known they can be easily made to not do this. Simply using an emag in emode will eliminate it as a matter of fact.

[hitech]

Does anyone have the exact wording of the new proposed rule?

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Miscue


No, they will not... it's too much work. That is the WHOLE point. It is left to subjectivity.

Its not subjectivity. They're very clear. They dont want to bother with grey areas. It either is or it isnt. The RT valve was made with one thing in mind: Speed, and ajustibility of bounce. No other marker besides the tippmann RT does this. Spring tension, return, or trigger pull is not the same.

Electros with bounce can achieve similar "bounces" but they're not directly designed to do so as blatantly as a Retro. I love my Emag to the death, but if it came down to it, I'd rip that stupid selector switch off in a heart beat. I dont need manual, and I certainly dont need Hybrid. Two guns in one was cool only for so long. If the Mag goes down, out comes gun Number two.

[WickedAirSportz]

A reactive trigger is unsafe and unfair only in some situations. NPPL needs to make the distinction.

A reactive trigger is one that pressure is applied to move the trigger forward. This amount of pressure will move your finger along with it. You are not releasing the trigger, your finger is being forced forward.

If you can lock out the capability of doing this, and the refs can not make it bounce, then it would be 100% legal. I saw Tipmann owners that had to remove the pin that pushes the trigger forward at Huntington Beach in order for their markers to be legal.

The NPPL is a very tight knit group that needs the manufacturers and sponsors. You are not going to eliminate manufacturers from the rules committee, or you would have a much bigger mess than you can possibly imagine.

[WickedAirSportz]

Jim you say there was only one mag at that event so it shouldnt be a problem for AGD.

Let me clarify that. It was not a problem for AGD because this person's marker was not illegal.

The only reason I know this person was the only one with a mag is that Bill and Dawn Mills commented that myself and this guy were the two loners of the entire event. I was the only one using a Warpfeed, and he was the only one using a mag. We played against each other, and Dawn got some good pictures of us battling against each other (one on one). His Ricochet didn't deflect my paintballs.

[hitech]

WAS,

Do you know what the exact wording of the proposed rule(s) are?

If so, will you post it?

[cledford]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Sweet spotting as you have defined it above is illegal. The ref could grab the marker and find this pretty easily, and not be allowed on the field.

The idea here people is safety. If someone can pull the trigger 18bps, that is one thing and obviously not real common. It's another thing to sweet spot with a Halo-B and shoot 20+bps into someone's face. Imagine going over to bunker someone and hit them 15 times point blank because you now the sweet spot on your trigger so well you can unleash that kind of fire power on demand. This is a safety hazard... period.

The NPPL rules are all about safety. We get enough welts just playing the game... we don't need to have the element of possible permanent injury or death.

Doesn't anyone else see the irony here? Jim Drew, the biggest hype artist *POOF* I know of in the paintball industry, the guy who single-handedly has done more to advance the issue of *electronic* bounce then EVERY OTHER COMPANY OUT THERE is sitting on a committee making determinations about rules with regard to triggers and bounce?

FACT: The Equalizer MORE THEN any other electronic product has led to the issue of bounce becoming the hot ticket that it is.

FACT: Jim produces a board that allows you to "dial in bounce" under the excuse and guise of allowing a user to eliminate it. Wonder why no other manufacturer ever had to include this "feature" - yet additionally their triggers also don't bounce. (Smart Parts, WDP, AGD, AKA, Original Timmy) This "feature" (along with the Racegun and E-Blade guys) has led to all of the hub-bub over electronically bouncing triggers. (The Tippmann discredits the mechanical side of the house)

FACT: Jim Drew is new to paintball - only having gotten into the area a little over a year ago was the most junior guy sitting on that panel - BY FAR. What were his credentials to be involved in such a high level forum in the first place? The guy produces a single upgrade to a SINGLE marker (currently) and he's all of the sudden propelled to the highest councils in the sport? Does anyone notice that there are a lot of guys who have contributed far more to the technology of the sport not on that panel?

FACT: Jim Drew knows very little about other markers, air systems, or products other then the Timmy. He has specifically admitted this time and again in thread after thread when challenged on matters he couldn't speak to. He has also, specifically, on a number of occasions STATED he did not know or care to know ANYTHING about AGD markers as they were (in his opinion) rec-ball guns and he was not "into" that market. (Direct quotes can be provided) So how does he contribute anything relevant with regard to mechanical triggers?

FACT: Like any gun (or board) - the RTP or Emag can and MUST be SETUP to malfunction - before bounce is present.

This is a big joke. Jim Drew quoting safety to people who've been playing since before he was geeking out on Apples. Jim why don't you share your credentials with us since you seem to speak from such a position of authority? I thought your alarmist story of the "15 bps into someone's face" was quaint - and how did you even determine that was how many BPS are fired when "sweet-spotting?" Have you ever even sweet-spotted a gun before? I have - it is incredibly difficult , even when setup to do it. It most certainly can't be done during a bunker move. I'm wondering where you even got your information - since you seem incapable of obtaining any statistics on ANYTHING if you can't use an oscilloscope to do so.

I'm just shocked that mechanical markers THAT HAVE BEEN LEGAL FOR YEARS NOW are all of the sudden are "banned" when electros with 1-3mm trigger pulls and pull weights in the sub-grams are being pulled at 20+bps and that happens to be fine. It is even more incredible to me that a hack like Jim could insert himself in to a situation where he could be involved in driving policy about a problem he helped to create, yet REAL GUN MANUFACTURERS weren't included.

I am MORE then ready to support MANDATORY trigger-pull lengths and weights - and I'll promise you one thing, the Equalizers of the world will be the markers/boards affected.

-Calvin

Warning: *No Flames* -Miscue

[JEDI]

Originally posted by hitech
WAS,

Do you know what the exact wording of the proposed rule(s) are?

If so, will you post it?

Sure, it clearly states, "Throw away your roller trigger mods, turn down your input pressure, and quit whining".....KIDDING!!!

[WickedAirSportz]

I believe the wording was posted at the beginning of this thread. The wording didn't change, it's just now the NPPL is deadly serious about inforcement. The NPPL has gone to the next level, one that will bring paintball international attention. The only way to get to that level is to clean up the game. Get rid of the cheating in every possible way - from trigger bounce to padded clothing to sideline coaching. There were many aspects covered in the meeting that I attended, and the ONLY thing that was not going to be inforced at the Huntington Beach event was the padded jersey rule. However, it was clearly stated that these jerseys would no longer be legal in future events. That was an unforunate thing for the clothing manufacturers, but they seem to have adpated just fine... afterall, they're selling more stuff to replace what is illegal.

I think the NPPL is headed on a course for greatness. I believe that players all over the world will come to respect the monumental task that the NPPL has taken up themselves to tackle. The game will get better, and the world will come to know paintball for what it is, and not correlate it with a bunch of hillbillies shooting each other in the back yard, or para-military nuts practicing for war. It's an extreme sport... simple as that.

[JEDI]

Why dont you just go away. *POOF*

*Warning: No Flaming* -Miscue

[magman007]

So jim, are you saying this will be settled on case to case basis?



And why was it dissalowed now? why not earlier? I mean, the tippman rt's have been illegal for so long any ways. Also, the RT mag was at one time the most popular out there, how is this fair to dissalow something chuck probabally used him self once uppon a time?

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Webmaster


...Lets just be done with it and allow full auto?

...I know there are some hesitations, but with full auto guns, our triggers can be set heavier and longer.

No more hair triggers would be needed. The guns would be safer with those changes.

I know people fear over shooting or double eye injuries - but we already have over shooting (intentional and unintentional)...

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz


...the only way to inforce this would be through limiting the hopper...

These are the BEST comments and ideas I've heard in a long time!

I like the idea suggested by these guys!

*** Allow Full-Auto

*** Minimum trigger force = 4-5 lbs. (same as a stock Glock)How to check? Do it like this, but use weights instead of coins.



*** Maximum hopper capacity = 50-100 (you can still carry as many pods as you want)




I also like this idea:

Originally posted by Miscue


Then set a freakin BPS cap!!!
Then set a freakin BPS cap!!!
Then set a freakin BPS cap!!!
Then set a freakin BPS cap!!!
Then set a freakin BPS cap!!!
Then set a freakin BPS cap!!!

Are you guys retarded or something?

*** Minimum trigger force = 4-5 lbs.

*** Max ROF = 8-10

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
Imagine going over to bunker someone and hit them 15 times point blank because you now the sweet spot on your trigger so well you can unleash that kind of fire power on demand. This is a safety hazard... period.

funny how chris lasoya did just that with an intimidator of all things with a was board that he says he only pulled the trigger 6 times?

[Cyberious]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
it's just now the NPPL is deadly serious about inforcement. The NPPL has gone to the next level, one that will bring paintball international attention. The only way to get to that level is to clean up the game. Get rid of the cheating in every possible way - from trigger bounce to padded clothing to sideline coaching.

Really? Deadly Serious? OK, so what about the Jeremy Salm issue? How did that bring international attention? How did the ruling the NPPL handed down show just how serious an offense that was? It reminds me of an incident that happened in the NFL several years ago. A defensive back would write on his hand towel a list of players he was going to "take out" during a game. So one game when he was playing against the Chicago Bears he hadn't been able to get to the QB who was on his list. So what does he do? He waited until the play had been dead for 20 seconds and then tackled the QB from behind taking him out of the game. It was the worst example of bad sportsmanship and cheating the league had ever seen. The NFL suspended him for life and rightfully so. Salm received a year's suspension for one of the worst examples of cheating I've ever seen. So what is the NPPL going to do to those individuals who wipe? Probably be stern on the Amateurs and Novices, and be lax on the Pros the way it currently is. The NPPL has little credibility in my mind because it has done little in the past to show itself as anything other that a group of special interest individuals who hand down their "holy" ruling to us insignificant players without us ever having a say. If each member had a vote then they would be a little more credible.

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
I think the NPPL is headed on a course for greatness.

Not likely unless the NPPL Board of Directors truly becomes a governing body of players from all levels and types of play that does not allow manufacturers or their employees as members of the board.

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
I believe that players all over the world will come to respect the monumental task that the NPPL has taken up themselves to tackle. The game will get better, and the world will ome to know paintball for what it is, and not correlate it with a bunch of hillbillies shooting each other in the back yard, or para-military nuts practicing for war. It's an extreme sport... simple as that.

No, it will continue to be known as a game played by a bunch of foul-mouthed, argumentative, unsportsman like cheaters.