breaking news ??? (runnaway, trigger bounce, NPPL rules etc)

[Jerhew]

isn't it strange how atleast 2 people connected with electo markers were present at the meeting and yet i didn't see names like Budd Orr or Tom Kaye on that list...
did they decline the invite?
or weren't they invited?
I WONDER

and so we are worried about the paint manufacturers and hopper manufacturers getting upset about rules but don't give a hoot about other marker manufacturers?

it's already been beaten to death but come on
this decision makes it impossible for a mechanical mag user to even come close to keeping up with those electros
it's absurd
that'd be a neat trick to sweetspot an rt while on the run trying to bunker someone
gimme a break Jim

this insults our intelligence as much as the "marijuana impairs your judgement" commercials where the teenagers are playing with a loaded gun...
ya sure marijuana will always make you accidentally shoot your friends....

comparing a properly setup rt with any electro is just stupid...plain and simple
it takes much more skill to fire quickly and is atleast as safe if not safer to have around than an electro

other than that i think it's good that the nppl is clamping down with the rules
although i completely disagree with how much pull certain manufacturers have in making rules...
definitely seems like someone is getting screwed

Warning: No Cussing -Miscue

[Doc Nickel]

FACT: The Equalizer MORE THEN any other electronic product has led to the issue of bounce becoming the hot ticket that it is.

-Actually, as I noted earlier, Smart Parts took willful and deliberate advantage of the loophole in NPPL rules and fielded their teams with "Turbo" Shockers as early as '98.

In those Shocker controllers, "turbo" mode simply disabled the triggerswitch debounce. This allowed "switch noise"- which is what a debounce feature is designed to limit or remove- to make the controller think that the trigger was being pulled far faster than it physically was.

This led to a great deal of arguing between NPPL cofficials, SP crew and family, and a heavy, heated debate online and at tourneys about "trigger events", switch nouse, what actually constituted a 'trigger pull' (was it the physical trigger or the contacts in the switch?) and so on.

The NPPL even legally allowed "turbo" modes, if the ROF was kept under 8.2 bps- a nice, round number that just happened to correspond to the second-highest ROF the Turbo Shockers were capable of. This in turn led to WDP installing their eight-shot/8 bps "Zip" mode on their boards, though this was a fullauto feature, not a "turbo" mode.

The whole mess eventually led to official NPPL regs on what is and what isn't a trigger, and what does and what doesn't constitute a trigger pull.

I can't speak for the Equalizer board, having never tried one, but don't lay this all at Jim's feet just because he's working with similar features.

Doc.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Jerhew
isn't it strange how atleast 2 people connected with electo markers were present at the meeting and yet i didn't see names like Budd Orr or Tom Kaye on that list...
did they decline the invite?
or weren't they invited?
I WONDER

Maybe, because the markers most directly responsible for cheating issues ARE electronic and not mechanical...

Also, who knows what bridges may have been burned in the past...

[thecavemankevin]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner


funny how chris lasoya did just that with an intimidator of all things with a was board that he says he only pulled the trigger 6 times?

thats because he had bounce occur...and that is why NPPL is out lawing this and attempting to enforce this. However, if he had an RTP this wouldn't have happened to this severity.

Is the RTP/Tip reactive unsafe? No more unsafe than any other marker, mech or electro. As long as it is not capable of bounce.
Are they cappable of unsafe rates of fire? Only if you can pull the trigger itself at an unsafe rate....the trigger reactiveness is NOT capable of makeing this happen by sweetspotting. At it's most reactiveness and sweetspotting an RTP is capable of fireing about 13bps.

Are there electros that can fire faster than that? We all know there are.

Now can everyone pull a trigger at an unsafe rate of fire? No, not everyone can...but there are some that can. So what are we going to do about those people? Is the NPPL going to ban an individual just because they are cappable of unsafe rates of fire?

So why get rid of a marker that is capable of less shots than certain people are capable of with an electro and a light trigger pull (not even bouncing).

[cledford]

Originally posted by Doc Nickel


-Actually, as I noted earlier, Smart Parts took willful and deliberate advantage of the loophole in NPPL rules and fielded their teams with "Turbo" Shockers as early as '98.
Doc.

Here is a quote from a recent Drew thread about the trigger queuing and as you will see - he is a proponent for the more liberal crowd with regard for queuing:



The thread can be found here:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=193686&perpage=21&pagenumber=4

[rdb123]

Well said cledford.

[SyntaxError]

Considering that I can pull my angel's trigger about twice as fast as my RT's with a input of 950, I think the rule is pretty lame, especially if its only concerning safety from high rates of fire. An electronic trigger, in my opinion, IS JUST AS MUCH AN ADVANTAGE AS REACTIVITY. This rule should definately be amended, and considering the NPPL isn't even an official governing body of the sport, we at AO should push to have the rule amended.

[thecavemankevin]

well shoot....since certain people (WAS) seem to think that it is ok to store trigger events, then whats stopping someone from creating a board/software program that you could store even more.

For instance, i could sit and pull my trigger in a store mode for 3 or 4 days and in that time pull the trigger 30k plus times and then when i want to play just hit start and let it rip out 30k shots as fast as it can make the marker cycle.

Never the less....this has nothing to do with a mech trigger since this is obviously impossible to do with them...it was just a good old fashion witch hunt. Since they were on the subject they said...hey lets make sure we include Reactive trigger markers because those are a HUGE saftey hazard.

HOGWASH!

[Jack & Coke]

FYI:

Not to take up any side of the arguement regarding Jim Drew... but you do know that before Jim Drew created the Equalizer, the Timmy's original board already had a 3/4 second shot queue with the eyes on and no ball present?

Jim didn't create the 750 ms queue... it was already there.

[Jack & Coke]

I just thought about what I said, and must admit, I am incorrect.

there was a DELAY not a QUEUE.

(i.e. DELAY = Only 1 shot QUEUE)

Sorry about that... ma bad......

[CpSuPeRkId]

wow u guys have to be the sorriest bunch of whiners i have ever seen. you guys should be ashamed for all the flaming you guys are doing. jim was invited to the meeting because HE IS ONE OF THE BEST PAINTBALL ELECTRONICS ENGINEERS out there!!!! give the guy a break for gods sake!!! all he did is invent a board for a timmy and it can take advantage of trigger boucne. well did u morons ever come to think that it also has a trigger debounce feature????? you guys act like hes hypocritical and not worthy of being part of the nppl rules meeting. well guess what you crybabies, his product has ADJUSTABLE trigger bounce so do u really think he would come here and tell you guys this new rule when his cant be adjusted. of course not. and do u think its all up to him whether trigger bounce should be allowed??? NO. god i used to think that AO was the most respectable online forum. not anymore. you guys really should be ashamed of yourselves for claming jim that bad just cuz you guys cant handle the fact that the nppl is finally stepping up and trying to become a better organization.

now onto what i think should be allowed and not allowed. you guys keep whining about how your rt mags wont be allowed and that theres no definite ruling on this cituation. this is, in fact, a black and white cituation. if the ref can take your gun and shoot more than 1 shot with 1 trigger pull then its not allowed. they arent going to ban all mags with rts if they have been supporting them for all these years. they will ban certain markers however if the ref can pick it up and it goes reactive or into run away mode. for example, i cant get an rt mag to go reactive but i can get my brothers impy to get insane trigger bounce. its soo annoying. i pull the trigger 1 time and 4 or 5 shots rattle off and ill chop, reguardless of what hopper im using. whats really bad is that the trigger pull is longer, like a quarter inch pull. thank god for the guy that u guys think is the devil. hes making an equalizer for the impy that has a trigger DEbounce feature. so i honestly think that this is a no grey zone rule. if the ref can pick up your gun and shoot more than 1 shot per pull reguardless, then its illegal. so why do u guys keep on crying, i have no idea. they cant ban a gun that they cant make go reactive themselves so chill for a little bit and see what happens. thank god for me i will never shoot anything besides a wdp product and my ir3 has an opto trigger that CANNOT possibly get trigger bounce. while u guys are all gettin pulled for your timmys, impys, and mags ill be playing. lol jj

[cphilip]

CpSuPeRkId, the point that some are trying to make is that the rule itself is fine but that WAS's explanation seemed to concentrate on pressurized return as the thing they were targeting. And not other methods to get multiple shots. And that in itself would be wrong. And I suspect is an incorrect interpretation on his part. And I suspect there will be some phone calls going on about that tomorrow! But still I agree that one shot per pull has always been the rule and should stay. But there are other methods to get muliple balls per pull that do not include pressure return of the trigger. And some would argue your interpretation of who is the best and who should have been consulted in this whole decission making process of these things. I see a lot of very qualified people that were not invited to that meeting and it looks like a lynching even if it is not. Looks are important and input should be broad. And it wasn't. So I would caution you to not lecture to the members over that. Its not your place nor is it very welcome.

And I hate to inform you of this but both your markers in the right configuration could be made to bounce or at least shoot more than one ball per pull.

[magking1971]

What is wrong with hillbillys in the woods shooting each other?
The answer to this trigger bounce issue is easy,ready for it?.......Don't go to NPPL events.

[Webmaster]

Doc,

I remember playing in the Autococker open in springfield mo and played an SP factory team. They had prototypes with the turbo board. It was cool at the time - but later we were like - hey - thats cheating! I was one of the first people shot out by a turbo shocker!

I still think screw this - make it full auto - no bps limit.

People that constant air or semi auto would turn this game into a bunch of one eyed player - but it didnt. Put a strap on the goggles and go. More playing, less worring about what turbo/bounce crap is doing. Just pull the trigger and shoot your guy out. 10,15,20 bps - how ever fast your gun and loader can spit paint.

[Jack & Coke]

Just make sure I'm on YOUR team...