Deadlywind hAir trigger demo video

[lather]

What a total load of crap. I'm sorry, but I just can't put it in any softer terms than that. Do you seriously think that PTP had this patent all along, and then just slapped it out on the table recently . . . just to screw DW? Riiight.

Ever stop to think that they've been waiting on the patent to issue, so that when it goes to market, they have some protection?

This hero worship/favoritism (or whatever you want to call it), is really starting to get out of hand. PTP had the idea first, protected it, and will likely release a product which will do exactly what the hAir did. But you guys don't want to buy it from PTP, you want them to just give it to the company you want to buy it from. Why? I mean, don't get me wrong, Colin is a hell of a guy, but what makes him so much greater of a guy than the owner of PTP (whoever he is)? Because he posted a video? Just because they discussed the development on this forum, does not make their product any better or worse than anyone else's. Also, just because you know the person (or think you know them), does not neccessarily make them right.

That's my piece. As always, your mileage may vary.

Well Said! A thoughtful, common sense post on this thread!

The anti-PTP lynch mob have no idea what they are talking about.

Truth is, nobody but the involved parties know what is really going on behind the scenes. We, the potential consumers, do not have the right to pick and choose who we would want to conceptualize, patent, develop and sell a potential product. (Especially since that preference is based solely on perceived internet forum "popularity"). That decision is up to the courts/patent attorneys, and any agreements between the principal parties involved.


Once the product is out, whether by PTP or DW, you can then express your displeasure with either company, by excercising your right as a consumer not to buy it! Until then, the whining and baseless accusations are meaningless.

[rabidchihauhau]

Califmagfan,

Let me tell you and everyone else here this up-front: I don't work for Pro-Team. I haven't been there for over two weeks. I left on good terms to pursue my own thing - so anything I say regarding what they are doing is my own personal opinion/viewpoint and is not official PTP information in any way shape or form.

With that being said: YOU HAVE GOT TO BE A FLAMEBAIT POSER FOR SOMEONE ELSE - or totally, absolutely and completely UNINFORMED. I'll contain my natural desire to call you all of the names that are appropriate at this point in order to address the issues, but its painfull to do because those words are about the only really appropriate response to what you said.

Now lets go through it a piece at a time (this is going to be like sorting through a pile of dung to find a penny...)

(quotations indicate Cali's statements)

1. " you all sat on your collective hands producing sub-par, unpopular moded products that were invented by other companies with real innovative spirit"

if you checked your dates, you will find that pro-team was the FIRST to introduce:

armson rifled barrels
double-trigger frames
aftermarket bodies
spacer kits for mags
double triggers for cockers
and on and on.

You won't believe it, but PTP has been first to market with so many things that you use on a daily basis, they can literally lay claim to innovating much of the market. The people and companies you laud as innovators are, in fact, the copycats who, in many cases, simply had more advertising dollars than PTP to 'tout' their innovations.

Talk to someone who's been in the industry since the mid 80s and they'll set you straight - but that would be like work, and that's really tough to do from your over-stuffed couch, isn't it?

2. "PTP is the company that makes an over-priced knock off warp feed... the latest fledgling attempt to make a rifled paintball barrel that you should have known woouldnt work befor you tried it,, and you made a cheesy line of automag bodies that had some of the worst anno jobs imaginable..."

That over-priced knockoff warpfeed - you moron - (ooops, one of them slipped out) is a negotiated and licensed deal between PTP and AGD; the two companies have worked together for years; until the slug bodies, PTP was literally the ONLY licensed aftermarket manufacturer of automag parts and accessories. You're not going to believe this, but PTP filed the patent for the E-Mag and sold it to AGD.

The rifled barrel - it works. If you think it claims to induce spin, you've just bought into the HYPE from copycat companies. The barrels have been on the market for YEARS and test out as good as anything else.

Too bad that you're so hung up on being the mouthpiece for someone who has to hide behind your skirts - you'll just never believe any of this and therefore will not be able to take advantage of true innovation.

'Cheesy' automag bodies? As in - an all aluminum, cocker-threaded, rail integrated into the body' automag body that was introduced to the market in 1990? The first four and five color, splash-fade annodized bodies that SET THE STANDARD FOR custom anodizing in 1998? That everyone else ran out and found who was doing it for PTP so they could copy the same thing? Yeah, cheesy. Right.

Please, please, please tell me that you also believe in the tooth fairy, easter bunny and santa claus, because then what you wrote would make sense. Otherwise, I'll have to post again and use those words I'm holding back.

Arrrgh! This guy needs to have his skull removed so we can wash his brain with lye soap.

[thorn]

ok guys. listen. CAN DEADLYWIND JACK SOMEONES IDEA BY LOOKING AT A 5 SECOND VIDEO and/or READING SOMETHING ABOUT A PNEUMATIC TRIGGER? NO!
if you rip those grips off i can almost guarantee what you see in the two frames is not the same.
also, when people compare this to sp, in a way it is. sp wants to control all electro frames markers, ptp wants to control all pneutriggers (a little play on words there) even if one is mass produced, and one is not, they both want to control a frame using either electronics, or gas.

[viper_ssc]

ok guys. listen.CAN DEADLYWIND JACK SOMEONES IDEA BY LOOKING AT A 5 SECOND VIDEO and/or READING SOMETHING ABOUT A PNEUMATIC TRIGGER? NO!
if you rip those grips off i can almost guarantee what you see in the two frames is not the same.
also, when people compare this to sp, in a way it is. sp wants to control all electro frames markers, ptp wants to control all pneutriggers (a little play on words there) even if one is mass produced, and one is not, they both want to control a frame using either electronics, or gas.

Did anyone say that Deadlywind copied PTP? No. Just because they came up with similar designs doenst mean they copied them. PTP becoming the like SP just because they patented their design? no, they were just protecting their product. Think about it, if you just designed something that could make alot of money would you patent it? of course. PTP is doing nothing wrong. You think just that a company patented something and then is inforceing their patent that they are gonna ruin paintball. Well they arent. You guys are making a huge deal out of something that isnt that bad. Just wait and see what happens, if they dont come out with the hair trigger then thats fine, buy a PTP one if they make it for mag.

[ffcocker]

ptp

lets not forget that PTP was also the first to come up with a "halfblock" cocker years before martin or whoever did
it was called the micrococker if I remember correctly
I haven't heard of them sueing any of those guys so Im willing to bet they would like to work out something with DW

[CoolHand]

ok guys. listen. CAN DEADLYWIND JACK SOMEONES IDEA BY LOOKING AT A 5 SECOND VIDEO and/or READING SOMETHING ABOUT A PNEUMATIC TRIGGER? NO!
if you rip those grips off i can almost guarantee what you see in the two frames is not the same.
also, when people compare this to sp, in a way it is. sp wants to control all electro frames markers, ptp wants to control all pneutriggers (a little play on words there) even if one is mass produced, and one is not, they both want to control a frame using either electronics, or gas.

DW didn't jack anything, and I haven't seen anyone insinuating that they did.

Ever hear the saying "Great minds think alike."? Well, they do. History is full of ideas that occured to multiple people in different locations at the same time (the atomic bomb being the most notable).

What you people who are comparing PTP to SP are missing, is central to the argument. IE - PTP actually invented what they patented. All this blowing about prior art and whatnot is pointless (especially when most, if not all, of us are not patent attorneys).

Also, I'm pretty sure that no one is going to get a C&D order over building a pneu assisted frame that uses a cocker 3way. The performance of such a product would be nowhere near that of either of these two systems, and could not be advertised as comperable without simply lieing (not like that would ever happen). The patent is broad to protect them against designs that do the exact same thing in a minutely different package, not "control the world at all cost". Its CYA and nothing more.

Believe me, if you had invested years of R&D time, money, and all the BS to file a patent, you would be downright indignant at the suggestion by others (uninformed others I might add) that you were somehow in the wrong, and should surrender your rights for "the good of the players". The playing field looks much more tretcherous when its your money on the line, believe me.

Have a good Thanksgiving.

[the larch]

hate to agree with coolhand, but he is correct, There is an enormous difference between the situation here and the situation with S.P. The only thing that PTP can be really accused of here is not DEVELOPING THEIR PATENT to a consumer end product in a reasonable amount of time. I hope that the current attention will stoke the fires. Personally, I don't give a Rat's....butt who comes out with it, just as long as I can slap one on my mag and grin like a maniac. DW does have wonderful looking mag bodies BTW.

[Andrew Cunje]

Deadly wind should just release their specs on how to make the trigger, instructions if you will, and sell part for a DYI project...then everyone woudl be happy...they were only sellign their concept...and parts to do it with :)


sigh...im just frustrated with neither trigger being out...i want one so bad, i was so frustrated i almost sold my mag the other day... that woudl have been stupid...cause when one is released i will be ****ing my pants and ownign people in paintball...

[CaliMagFan]

mainly to coolhand and rabid...,

wow, such harsh words... i'm really just stirring the pot most of the time...

coolhand... you have no need to take that harsh tone with me, i know what it is like to be an inventor and a designer, you dont need to defend what you feel to be the correct modus opperondi for patents against what i say. i type what i feel will elicit a response from the gallery... if i wanted the right answer i would go to a person that i know has it... not in the AO community.

rabid.... IMO most of those products that i mentioned are lacking in many ways... that said, i dont think there is a lot of factual information that can combat what is clearly oppinion... however right it is, dont fear oppinion, just make your own... you cant always have your way... its obviously your way tho because [we all own PTP mags with armson stealth barrels]... you see what i mean? its frivilous to fight me over... and about the abusive language at the end of your reply... what you have to say is fine and dandy... cause really, its yours, but when it comes to imparting physical harm to another person, no matter how fictionalized it may be, you're in the wrong... why hold back anymore than yuou already have NOT: "Arrrgh! This guy needs to have his skull removed so we can wash his brain with lye soap".... gimme a break man... with that kind of talk you're approaching getting this thread closed..

i'll estimate that your posts took a collective 15 minutes, if not that much time each to compose... thus, i'll take my 15 min of fame, bow, and wrap my fingers around my logic framed hAIR mag.... coolhand you should really get on that drawing that you have in your forum, its gold.

if i may state something for the gallery... AGD was the first to develop the HPA bottle with a reg that did a damn thing as a paintball bottle... they did not patent this idea, maybe folly, but they had to know that it would be the way of the future in paintball.. imagine for a minute if AGD was to have patented the concept of HPA on markers rather than the specific workings of the flatline reg, what a pickle we might be in now... or maybe not....

i'm not one to condemn, not am condemming the actions of PTP, they're legal and proper.... i just wonder sometimes what it would be like to live in a world where people invented and marketed things for the sake of the greater technological growth rather than for personal gain... several years ago i created an airfoil for model airplanes that mitigated the effects of "washing out" at the wingtips of largers planes at low speeds... it was one of a kind, and was something that had never been sucessfully applied to models until i wrote the right NACA number for it... anyhow, i never patented it, and have never regretted that action... but now most planes use it on scale models... just a penny for your thoughts....

if you dont like it leave it, dont pick it up so to insure that nobody else is a penny richer by the end of the day.

-kyro

[CoolHand]

coolhand... you have no need to take that harsh tone with me, i know what it is like to be an inventor and a designer, you dont need to defend what you feel to be the correct modus opperondi for patents against what i say. i type what i feel will elicit a response from the gallery... if i wanted the right answer i would go to a person that i know has it... not in the AO community.

Damn. Played like a fiddle.

I'm just a grumpy person by nature I suppose. Since all I had to go by was what you actually wrote, I responded as if that is exactly what you thought/felt, etc.

At any rate, having been once again bested in a duel of wits (a battle I seem ill equipped to partake of) I will retire. Doomed to once again lurk the forums until I can contain my numerous opinions no more.

Later

[ScatterPlot]

I was kinda under the assumption that PTP did NOT try to patent any and all paintball guns with a pneumatic sear tripper thingy in them. I think what happened was that person A exaggerated something, person B exaggerated and repeated, then person A heard what B was saying to be fact. If I had a nickel for every time a friend of mine told me something that I told them then I'd have like, I dunno, a dollar or so. But yeah, could someone who KNOWS what they're talking about clear this one up for us? Not someone who heard something on the internet, I'm talking like good friends with someone in the process, etc. That would help a lot.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

I was kinda under the assumption that PTP did NOT try to patent any and all paintball guns with a pneumatic sear tripper thingy in them. I think what happened was that person A exaggerated something, person B exaggerated and repeated, then person A heard what B was saying to be fact. If I had a nickel for every time a friend of mine told me something that I told them then I'd have like, I dunno, a dollar or so. But yeah, could someone who KNOWS what they're talking about clear this one up for us? Not someone who heard something on the internet, I'm talking like good friends with someone in the process, etc. That would help a lot.

The only people who know anything are the people involved and for legal reasons won't say anything. We don't even know if PTP is holding up DW. They may be working out a deal that is fair to all involved. PTP may have no plans to bring out a 'Mag version of their frame. I've heard of companies licensing other companies for free before. Let's just say that legal stuff takes a loooooooooooooong time to work out and leave it there. Patience is what is called for here. I know that's in short supply these days, and not one of my strong points either.

[rabidchihauhau]

calimag:


you said "most of those products that i mentioned are lacking in many ways... that said, i dont think there is a lot of factual information that can combat what is clearly oppinion... however right it is, dont fear oppinion, just make your own... you cant always have your way... its obviously your way tho because [we all own PTP mags with armson stealth barrels]... you see what i mean?"

No, I don't see what you mean and the only thing that can effectively fight against idiotic opinions is the harsh light of reality.

"its frivilous to fight me over..."

why? because no matter what anyone else says you're still going to go and stir the pot? Who the hell gave you the right to become the great instigator?

"and about the abusive language at the end of your reply... what you have to say is fine and dandy..."

there was no abusive language. There was hyperbole that served to give some small inkling of just exactly what I thought of your position.


"i'll estimate that your posts took a collective 15 minutes, if not that much time each to compose... thus, i'll take my 15 min of fame, bow, and wrap my fingers around my logic framed hAIR mag.... coolhand you should really get on that drawing that you have in your forum, its gold."

No - I type a whole hell of a lot faster than that - you get about 30 seconds of INfamy, if that.

"if i may state something for the gallery... AGD was the first to develop the HPA bottle with a reg that did a damn thing as a paintball bottle... they did not patent this idea, maybe folly, but they had to know that it would be the way of the future in paintball.. imagine for a minute if AGD was to have patented the concept of HPA on markers rather than the specific workings of the flatline reg, what a pickle we might be in now... or maybe not.... "

You're wrong on that score. The reg used in the first AGD HP systems was the same regulator as that which was used in the mag, and therefore still covered by the patent.

Several companies now use that design and I don't want to say anything else because I do not know the specifics of the arrangements that Tom made.

I think you ought to stick to asking questions and providing factual information, because your pot stirring is not any help at all, and consistently being wrong will not help in the future.

[Rift]

ohh nooz here we go again

[Dubstar112]

Damn. Played like a fiddle.

I'm just a grumpy person by nature I suppose. Since all I had to go by was what you actually wrote, I responded as if that is exactly what you thought/felt, etc.

At any rate, having been once again bested in a duel of wits (a battle I seem ill equipped to partake of) I will retire. Doomed to once again lurk the forums until I can contain my numerous opinions no more.

Later

I dont recommend, withholding your opinion. Take it as you may, but this is where people go to make their opinion known and argument is natural, but so is childishness. I hope to see the former more than the later. Do stick around and post in this thread.