10 years of Paintball...and its going down hill

[LONEWOLFOO1]

this why i bought a tac one i can have this gun for ten years because now that i am older i only get to play 3 times or year or less. and i share my case with a friend (we split it in half) after the rounds are gone i stop playing its as simple as that.

since we play woodsball we don't shoot that much paint even in cover fire instead of beating a drum we vary our shots keeps most people off balance. with speedball you are constaly throwing paint simple becasue in the begining of the game you are in striking distance. in woodsballl you feel you takeing to much fire back off paintball can't go forever.

but on a side note if we play at the end of the day speedball because we have paint leftover from woodsball so it keeps the speedball and woodsball guys happy. we play with both types of guys and it works has been for five years.

[DarkRipper]

Well, I have skimmed through most of this thread and I must say what it needs is a bit of levity.

Do you really want to know what is wrong with paintball? The internet!

Young punks finding other young punks so they can beat their chests about their latest and greatest 20bps present from Mommy and Daddy.

Players brought up in a bygone era forced to relive the golden days instead of teaching new players the ropes.

Bonehead questions asked again and again and again while we are all forced to witness it and someone pays for the bandwidth.

The latest doo-dads and widgets gaining undue hype and sales almost instantly.

Players posting instead of shooting.

Semi players flaming pumpers. Pumpers flaming semi players.

Post counts higher than paintballs fired per year.

Am I guilty...yes.

Moral of post: Play more, surf less!

Ahahahhah Kudos

[El Pirata]

When I started playing in 1986 a case of 2500 balls (there was no such thing as quality then) could be purchased for about $150. Now today a case of higher grade paint is half that price. Granted you are getting 500 balls less but still. The paint prices are dropping in a big way. Paint that would have cost $60 - 70 a few years ago is now being sold for $40. Paint prices are dropping and marker prices are raising.

Now why would this be? First and foremost technology is a big factor. Inflation. Supply & demand. There are more reasons than this but those are 3 big ones. Back in the 80s most pumps were based off Nelspot technology so most companies did not have much inovation in their markers they just basically took what was already on the market and added one of their own features for marketing and sold their product. An example in today's markers is the spyder. How many spyder wannabe's are out there? Heck even a high priced intimidator is only a modified spyder. I am not meaning to bash any marker out there but even Angels follow a very similar principle.

Really there are only 3 types of semi autos out there today:
Tippman style (including Intimidators, Angels, Impulses, Spyders and any other marker that have the bolt attached to the hammer)
Cocker style where there is a closed bolt and the hammer is not attached to the bolt (an old SMG 60 and a 68 Special could fall into a category being half Tippmann and half Cocker)
Automag style and their blow forward technology (Shockers, DM's, Ions fall in here where there is no hammer only valving)

When Tippmanns first hit the scene in the mid 80s they used completely new technology and from that technology most markers are based. Cockers when designed as a pump and changed into a semi auto later still followed the basics of a pump in that the ball was fired then a it was cocked and reloaded waiting to fire again. Tom Kaye really took the world by storm when he introduced the Mag in 90. No one had ever done something like this before, or at least with notariety. Now with the Tippmann and Mag style firmly in place the sport slowly changed one step at a time to what it is today.

I am not saying that any of the high priced markers are not worth their price nor are they without inovation. I just bought a WDP G-7 to replace my Speed 05 and the difference between the two is like night and day both in features and performance. Most of the high end markers have a better than average amount of R&D put into them to be the best they can be when they hit the market. While I can't give specific WDP prices I will say this, they are not making the huge profits off of each marker that you would think. Compared to the expenses of the research, production, marketing and distribution their profit is definately a far cry from the retail price that the buyer pays. I will say one thing about the technology of the markers being sold today, the companies that last the long haul in this sport are the ones that take the larger part of today's product profit and put it into tomorrow's product instead of their wallet.


Now why is paint dropping in price? Strictly using RP as an example. Back in the day RP was the absolute best you could buy however they were mostly a pharmacuitical (spelling) company and their overall production of paintballs was less than 1% of their income. Another reason for paint being higher priced back then was the number of companies producing paint. Lastly the demand was lower from both using pumps and the overall number of players. Today not even counting the high tech markers a Tippmann can easily fire 5 - 10 bps without too much trouble to the user. 180 divided by 5 balls a second equals 36 seconds and your hopper is empty.

Now back in the day I remember a 2500 case lasting several months. Back then I would use 100, maybe 200 balls in a full day of playing back to back to back. Today it's is exceptionally rare for a player to use less than 500 balls and play back to back games throughout the day. Pure and simple paint is cheaper today because more people are playing the sport and they are using more paint.



Now lastly the players? How to say this without slamming people too too badly? When I figure out how to say this without slamming a great many people I will but until then, to be continued...

[LONEWOLFOO1]

Really there are only 3 types of semi autos out there today:
Tippman style (including Intimidators, Angels, Impulses, Spyders and any other marker that have the bolt attached to the hammer)
Cocker style where there is a closed bolt and the hammer is not attached to the bolt (an old SMG 60 and a 68 Special could fall into a category being half Tippmann and half Cocker)
Automag style and their blow forward technology (Shockers, DM's, Ions fall in here where there is no hammer only valving)

I never notice that if you can can you make a list that uses automag,tippmann,autococker style technolgy more so with the automag. i thought automag was one of its kind type of paintball gun i guess i was wrong?

[tyrion2323]

When I started playing in 1986 a case of 2500 balls (there was no such thing as quality then) could be purchased for about $150. Now today a case of higher grade paint is half that price. Granted you are getting 500 balls less but still. The paint prices are dropping in a big way. Paint that would have cost $60 - 70 a few years ago is now being sold for $40. Paint prices are dropping and marker prices are raising.

I see marker prices idling. For the past 6 years, a new Angel has cost approximately $1000. Of course, if you're comparing the old guns to newer guns, the point becomes unfair. Of course new guns with better technology cost more. They have more! But realistically, prices of guns in the lower range have dropped. A mech spyder used to cost up to $200. Now they're under $100.

Now why would this be? First and foremost technology is a big factor. Inflation. Supply & demand. There are more reasons than this but those are 3 big ones. Back in the 80s most pumps were based off Nelspot technology so most companies did not have much inovation in their markers they just basically took what was already on the market and added one of their own features for marketing and sold their product. An example in today's markers is the spyder. How many spyder wannabe's are out there? Heck even a high priced intimidator is only a modified spyder. I am not meaning to bash any marker out there but even Angels follow a very similar principle.

I understand that you're not trying to "bash" any marker, but you're completely incorrect about Intimidators and spyders. The only similarity is the body style. The rest is completely different.

Really there are only 3 types of semi autos out there today:
Tippman style (including Intimidators, Angels, Impulses, Spyders and any other marker that have the bolt attached to the hammer)
Cocker style where there is a closed bolt and the hammer is not attached to the bolt (an old SMG 60 and a 68 Special could fall into a category being half Tippmann and half Cocker)
Automag style and their blow forward technology (Shockers, DM's, Ions fall in here where there is no hammer only valving)

Again, you're mistaken. Angels, Impulses and Intimidators do not resemble Tippmann operation AT ALL. Not even close. That's like saying that bicycles operate exactly like cars because they both have wheels.

When Tippmanns first hit the scene in the mid 80s they used completely new technology and from that technology most markers are based. Cockers when designed as a pump and changed into a semi auto later still followed the basics of a pump in that the ball was fired then a it was cocked and reloaded waiting to fire again. Tom Kaye really took the world by storm when he introduced the Mag in 90. No one had ever done something like this before, or at least with notariety. Now with the Tippmann and Mag style firmly in place the sport slowly changed one step at a time to what it is today.

No argument there, except for that all markers fire the ball after being cocked (or put into the firing position).

I am not saying that any of the high priced markers are not worth their price nor are they without inovation. I just bought a WDP G-7 to replace my Speed 05 and the difference between the two is like night and day both in features and performance. Most of the high end markers have a better than average amount of R&D put into them to be the best they can be when they hit the market. While I can't give specific WDP prices I will say this, they are not making the huge profits off of each marker that you would think. Compared to the expenses of the research, production, marketing and distribution their profit is definately a far cry from the retail price that the buyer pays. I will say one thing about the technology of the markers being sold today, the companies that last the long haul in this sport are the ones that take the larger part of today's product profit and put it into tomorrow's product instead of their wallet.


Now why is paint dropping in price? Strictly using RP as an example. Back in the day RP was the absolute best you could buy however they were mostly a pharmacuitical (spelling) company and their overall production of paintballs was less than 1% of their income. Another reason for paint being higher priced back then was the number of companies producing paint. Lastly the demand was lower from both using pumps and the overall number of players. Today not even counting the high tech markers a Tippmann can easily fire 5 - 10 bps without too much trouble to the user. 180 divided by 5 balls a second equals 36 seconds and your hopper is empty.

Now back in the day I remember a 2500 case lasting several months. Back then I would use 100, maybe 200 balls in a full day of playing back to back to back. Today it's is exceptionally rare for a player to use less than 500 balls and play back to back games throughout the day. Pure and simple paint is cheaper today because more people are playing the sport and they are using more paint.

Can't argue that more and more people are playing. I agree.

Now lastly the players? How to say this without slamming people too too badly? When I figure out how to say this without slamming a great many people I will but until then, to be continued...

I think the problem with players is that the attitudes in paintball...well, a lot of them stink. Pros surely don't set a great example, nor do a great many Old schoolers, who can't seem to find a positive thing to say about newer players. These attitudes are picked up by new players - they emulate the pros and their peers, all the while rejecting older players who look down upon them. Additionally, many players are quite young. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, we have to remember that youngsters think and act differently from older people, and when we witness poor behavior, very few of us actually make the effort to explain why such behavior is wrong.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

is there any other company make a paintball gun that use automag technology or something similiar?

[Lohman446]

is there any other company make a paintball gun that use automag technology or something similiar?

ICD - has basically replaced the spring with air.

One could argue the spool valve is close, but thats going further.

BTW - has SP ever stated the Ion was spool valved? It looks more blow forward to me. What constitutes a spool valve compared to blow forward?

[El Pirata]

I see marker prices idling. For the past 6 years, a new Angel has cost approximately $1000. Of course, if you're comparing the old guns to newer guns, the point becomes unfair. Of course new guns with better technology cost more. They have more! But realistically, prices of guns in the lower range have dropped. A mech spyder used to cost up to $200. Now they're under $100.

I understand that you're not trying to "bash" any marker, but you're completely incorrect about Intimidators and spyders. The only similarity is the body style. The rest is completely different.

Again, you're mistaken. Angels, Impulses and Intimidators do not resemble Tippmann operation AT ALL. Not even close. That's like saying that bicycles operate exactly like cars because they both have wheels.

I think the problem with players is that the attitudes in paintball...well, a lot of them stink. Pros surely don't set a great example, nor do a great many Old schoolers, who can't seem to find a positive thing to say about newer players. These attitudes are picked up by new players - they emulate the pros and their peers, all the while rejecting older players who look down upon them. Additionally, many players are quite young. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, we have to remember that youngsters think and act differently from older people, and when we witness poor behavior, very few of us actually make the effort to explain why such behavior is wrong.

In terms if calling an Angel a relative to a Tippmann and so forth it a similar category to the way they classify cars, luxury cars, compact cars, minivans, trucks, etc... My whole point was that the bolt is rigidly connected to the hammer and when the hammer moves, so does the bolt. All of them ram forward to fire the ball at the same time then retract to the loading position until user input tells them to fire again. That was the whole point there in comparing Angels, Intimidators, Impulses and Tippmanns.

Yes, older generation and somewhat outdated markers have dropped in price however the top of the line price is generally stays about 1k with special models fetching a slightly higher price. In the early 90s a top of the line marker fetched a price of less than $500. In 2000, an Angel LCD or an E-Mag both ran about 1k. Today your top of the line DM, Angel, Mag are still in the 1k range. Prices on markers have gone up between 90 and 99 but currently the top of the line is staying about the same level and the lower end is drastically going down.

The players, hmmm a little harsher than I would have put it but very similar view to my own. I think it's the whole gen x and younger generation growing up expecting to get a 100k a year job right out of school mentality that contributes to this. Not having to earn some things. Not being allowed to play with dangerous toys growing up robs them of vital experience that says nothing in life is free and some things can kill you. Unlike a video game where you get 6000 lives in a game or in real life if you eat too many marbles you can and pretty much deserve to die.

[tyrion2323]

The players, hmmm a little harsher than I would have put it but very similar view to my own. I think it's the whole gen x and younger generation growing up expecting to get a 100k a year job right out of school mentality that contributes to this. Not having to earn some things. Not being allowed to play with dangerous toys growing up robs them of vital experience that says nothing in life is free and some things can kill you. Unlike a video game where you get 6000 lives in a game or in real life if you eat too many marbles you can and pretty much deserve to die.

I'm not quite sure where you're getting your generalizations, but I really don't think that today's youth is how you're portraying us to be. In every generation there have always been those who feel entitled to things they haven't earned. That's neither new, nor original to the younger generations of today, and it seems that every generation gets the same accusation pointed at them every decade or so. As for dangerous toys...well, I'm not sure what your point is. As a society, I feel it's our duty to constantly look to improve ourselves and the safety of our communities. I'm not sure that allowing children to play with dangerous toys is really going to solve anything. In fact, I know it won't.

I can only imagine that your statements refer to children under 6 years of age, as I have never met anyone my age who has eaten a bag of marbles. If that's the case, then I think it's a pretty ridiculous statement to say that it's the child's fault for not knowing things that we, as adults, should be teaching them. This links back to my statement about paintballers. If new players are raised in a community where acting like a jerk is simply, "acting like a paintballer," then we as older players have failed to convey in a meaningful way what acting like a paintballer "should be." A 12 year can't be expected to know about the roots and history of paintball, or the technological advances in the past 5 years. That's OUR responsibility.

As for your relating Tippmanns to Angels and Timmies. The only functional similarity is that the bolt is connected to the ram or striker. Again, they're in completely different leagues. You could classify every paintball gun as being "fundamentally the same" because they all shoot paintballs," or because "they all have triggers," but that is a far reach at best.

[El Pirata]

I was merely putting them into 3 basic categories. If that's above your pay grade I am sorry. Forget it.

[Lohman446]

As for your relating Tippmanns to Angels and Timmies. The only functional similarity is that the bolt is connected to the ram or striker. Again, they're in completely different leagues. You could classify every paintball gun as being "fundamentally the same" because they all shoot paintballs," or because "they all have triggers," but that is a far reach at best.

But all he was commenting on, and he seemed to make it clear on how he was classify, was the basic operating principles. He never said everything in that class was equal. Think of it as seperating vehicles into 4X4s, sedans, and coupes. Theres a vast amount of differences in each category. He did seperate them on any qualitative (or for that matter quantitative) judgemetn of qualities, he seperated them on a basic theory of operation.

[Athius]

Over here in Puerto Rico paintball is relatively cheap compare to US prices. In most fields you spend like $10-15 on entry and all day air and like 45-55 on a box of seconds.

But theres the big catch over here tournament play sucks there are competitive teams but most of them cheat and one of the owner of a league (SPY Series) is an ******* and doesnt think about supporting the sport only thinks about his pocket. The refs most of the time doesnt do their job sometimes they dont do anything at all.

In the last SPY series tournament all the teams where promised to have 4 games and out of nowhere they suspended the 4th one and there were like 3 teams that needed that game to qualify on the semis.

Stuff like this makes most players over here not to play tournaments.

[El Pirata]

Over here in Puerto Rico paintball is relatively cheap compare to US prices. In most fields you spend like $10-15 on entry and all day air and like 45-55 on a box of seconds.

But theres the big catch over here tournament play sucks there are competitive teams but most of them cheat and one of the owner of a league (SPY Series) is an ******* and doesnt think about supporting the sport only thinks about his pocket. The refs most of the time doesnt do their job sometimes they dont do anything at all.

In the last SPY series tournament all the teams where promised to have 4 games and out of nowhere they suspended the 4th one and there were like 3 teams that needed that game to qualify on the semis.

Stuff like this makes most players over here not to play tournaments.

[BlindeSeher]

The salvation of paintball is in the woods. Always has been, always will be. The woods are older and wiser than this game, and doubly so to it players. If you live in a city and aren't anywhere near the woods, my heart goes out to you.

[tyrion2323]

I was merely putting them into 3 basic categories. If that's above your pay grade I am sorry. Forget it.

There's no need to be a douche about it. Using your method, we can categorize basically everything by the common denominator...but that doesn't mean it's right.

Or perhaps you're upset because I called you out on your moronic views against Genx...