10 years of Paintball...and its going down hill

[Blazestorm]

Blaze,

Your first paragraph attempts to justify either the action or the mentality. By virtue of your own statement, any player can cheat if there is enough on the line. But by definition, tournament players put themselves in this situation more often, hence there would be more opportunity. It may seem like stereotyping, but the argument is more logical than it appears.

Not to say pumpers don't wipe

It would just be nice if everyone played with integrity.

Doesn't matter what's on the line, I was stating the reason for people seeing "tournament" players cheating more often is that they are put in situations where more is on the line compared to pump players. If they had pump leagues I wouldn't doubt there would be just as much cheating as tournaments today.

When I play recball I have no reason to cheat, hell I don't cheat in tournaments even when I have the opportunity too, simply for the reason I'd rather lose to a team that beat me, then win against a team that should have beat me... depending on the situation. But in general I'd rather lose to a better team than cheat and win...

And people who say wearing baggy clothes and such are also cheating... Is having 2 layers of baggy clothes going to make a difference? I witness a player get caught with 7 layers on... and his teammate had 6...

[cledford]

Well - I'm one of the people who started playing back in the "old days" ('86 or so...) and do feel that paintball isn't what it started out as - nor is any longer what I REALLY wish it was and had been. Speedball is fun, tourneys are great - but the days of good woodsball are dead IMHO - and that is why I don't bother to make it out more then a couple times a year anymore. It's just really sad - there is NOTHING left that resembles the teamwork, tactics and play that defined pre-supergun era PB. I still play once in a while - but usually walk away early shaking my head ruefully at the "speedball" wannabe's who'll dumb 2 cases or more a day of walk-on play.

That having been said, from my perspective, the ONE, SINGLE, ABOVE ALL, FAR AND AWAY MOST ABUSED FULL-AUTO I've ever seen is the Tippmann RTs. The fields (at least in my area) have been turning a blind eye to them for years - could it be that most fields are run by the same people who run the stores and Tippies are the cash-cow of the paintball world?

I've got a Pandora in my Viking and have no problem running it in auto-response these days - heck I'm only abusing the same rules that the Tippmann guys have been openly breaking for years.

I think it all gets back to the players, me included - if you can't beat them join 'em...

-Calvin

[ICP]

That having been said, from my perspective, the ONE, SINGLE, ABOVE ALL, FAR AND AWAY MOST ABUSED FULL-AUTO I've ever seen is the Tippmann RTs. The fields (at least in my area) have been turning a blind eye to them for years - could it be that most fields are run by the same people who run the stores and Tippies are the cash-cow of the paintball world?

I've got a Pandora in my Viking and have no problem running it in auto-response these days - heck I'm only abusing the same rules that the Tippmann guys have been openly breaking for years.

I think it all gets back to the players, me included - if you can't beat them join 'em...

-Calvin

That is the biggest problem I see in the pball world.

[tyrion2323]

Are we talking about the original post anymore, or has this become yet another thread about wiping, cheating and electros?

Oh goody, some classic AO fun

Cheating and wiping have both been around since before electros even came around. Heck, Tom Kaye busted out the Response Frame a long time ago - who here is adamantly opposed to that frame? Honestly - who has written long ridiculous threads about it? What about the eMag's "hybrid" mode... Where are the complaints? What about the fact that half of the "respectable" posters on these threads have eMags and xMags...are they cheaters too?

It's not a matter of electros - it's a matter of grudges, unhappiness and an unwillingness to adapt and progress.

[RusskiX]

Cheating and wiping have both been around since before electros even came around. Heck, Tom Kaye busted out the Response Frame a long time ago - who here is adamantly opposed to that frame?

IIRC, regulations governing one pull, one shot came about in response to RT's and auto-response. So yes there were complaints, and I'm sure that is part of the reason the autresponse never "took off" in sales. (I'd like to hear direct from TK on the autoreponse)

Now the major leagues just change rules to suit the manufacturers, not the other way around.
I guess that's evolution...

And has been stated before, slogans like Evil's perpetuate the whole attitude that cheating is acceptable.

Unfortunately, oil and water don't mix, so the best advice is seek out those who enjoy playing your personal style of paintball.

[soren2004]

Faddy (and others),

It has nothing to do with *ME* wanting other people to play the way I want them to play. You seriously need to read what I said again.

But if we really need to talk about me:

The concept of a fully automatic paintball gun, by itself and with everything else ignored, is actually not a terrible concept. The ability to hold onto the trigger and fire constantly is a very cool concept, for me.

For me, the added cost is negligible. I do not particularly *want* to buy 3 cases of paint for an afternoon of paintball, but I could. I also do not see anything inherently wrong with playing at longer ranges with electronic guns, IF everything else was ignored. With blinders on to everything else, I would like to see am improvement in my long range aiming. And with an e gun I could send out a volley of fire not unlike a long range shotgun.

Now, here is the real problem with your reply: No where in my posts (except for this reply) have I discussed myself or what I enjoy out of paintball. This topic is primarily about the sport of paintball.

Go back and read what really was written in previous posts. This discussion has many topics, but I have never been one of them.

[dave p]

What's stopping the pump players from wiping? Nothing.
:

whats stopping them? maybe honor, integrity and balls. the balls to be a man and accept your defeat. not too many men left in paintball, but a hell of a lot of children.

[silent running]

I love paintball, as in I can not get enough of it, for me it is sort of a Zen thing, to put it simply. The down hill nature aspect of the sport commented in the post, I think is on account of the fact that on the field it can be very demanding (to play well) and as a industry it attracts all kinds. The on field cheating, the underhanded business practices is really a reflection of the world at large, yes there are a lot of weak people out there, who can not play a higher standard of play without cheating. Yet those cheaters are dependent on the rest of us to play by the rules, otherwise there would be no game to play.
I think if there is something wrong out there that needs to be brought out in to the open. It can only make the sport stronger and healthier by airing it. If it has merit then we as part of the sport can act on it. The tournement player has been the role model for the rest of the sport for a long time. I think that is changing, the tournements in the chicagoland area have been drying up, the only place that seems to have any major tournements I hear they have fights as part of the entertainment, (humor here). I am not sure how accurate that is but thats what we have heard. There is no stopping the growth of paintball, inspite of some people in the industry. We just have to think out of the box in how to deal with the bad apples and still not resort to being one of them.

[BobDoleIsMyHero]

Of course it's going down hill, TK isn't runnin AGD anymore.

I think feeling "out gunned" is just a state of mind.

Listen to this man, he speaks the truth!

The difference between 6 shots per second (possible on 68automag) and 20 shots per second is roughly 50 cents it is not the difference between win and loose. My first trip to a pb field I used a rental tippman 68 carbine (you all know the type, slow heavy and required a good shake every four shots because the loader jammed). That day I played against a guy who was running an angel. He spent most of the day shooting me but about half way through the day I got a good clean shot on him. You know what he did? He said nice shot and walked to the dead box. This history was provided to show that
1. PB players with electro guns can have class.
2. High rates of fire are not necessary to win a game. They can give you an edge but they can't win the game for you.

["the FitZ"]

okay here's my 2cents

A couple of weeks ago I went to play some woodsball at a new place. Yes I am normally a speedball player. This place was a big plot of woods w/ no bunkers. We had a crowd of almost 40 so the games lasted pretty good. Let me tell you how it worked out. We played 3 games. 30 min games which most of it was just strolling through the woods. b/c once you located the ppl you would just get out of range and walk around. I shot between 500-700 balls and even busted out the old carbine for a game or two. But you know what. Going back to the roots was totally gay and it was bigtime boring. I brought 3 guys I normally play w/ and we just plain hosed the other guys at their own field. Not b/c we shot so much faster, 1 had a mech cocker, me w/ my ult'd classic, and one w/ a t.e.s. Now when they decided to let us carry paint we beat them in less than 10 min. And no we were not begging to carry paint it was their decision.

I think speedball mainly takes the lag time out of woodsball. I'd much rather go run around a speedball field and play 15 games of 5 mins and shoot more. The place I'm playing now is down in a valley so wind doesn't effect us. It's a mix of woods and speedball. It has a rock bluff. lined w/ cedars as well as a cedar thicket. several plywood and spool bunkers. A bus, a pond, a barn and in the deepest part of the valley there is a hilly field w/ lots of bunkers surrounded by a creek and a steep hill. I play w/ kids from ages 7-40 and we all have fun.

I guess what I'm trying to say is to each is own

["the FitZ"]

okay lets think about this

If your'e getting bogged down get a teammate to lay some cover so you can move. If you get shot well he had a better plan than you

If new players ever gripe at me about me shooting them out then it's b/c they're sore losers but I'm not about to slack up on them or let them win b/c nobody got good by always winning. And I don't go up to the green bay packers and say "hey guys wanna play some backyard football"

Usually ppl w/ the fast guns don't utilize it. It's only, w/ a few exceptions, the rich kids who think they're the next big thing. But that will come later. And paint quality has come up bigtime while price has indeed dropped. Marballizers stay about the same b/c pmi/rps are punks and they know the stuff is awesome

Once again mostly it's the rich babies who blow their hopper in one game to no avail.

And here's what I say to your friends who'd rather spend 20 bux on a 2 hr movie. What if the movie sux. and 20 bucks would get you about 1000 balls. If a noob shoots that in a day he's obviously having fun

Now for the greed issue. All the money that can be made from fields is through paint and air. If they have a compressor then they spent big bux and need to recover before their is profit. And yes paint at events is very expensive but once again they need not be saints if theyre trying to run a bussiness. and 1/4 of the price. sounds like you just need to play somewhere else

Sounds to me like a store that doesn't stock new stuff is what you want. You hate these new guns but want to buy one?

The companys that glorify their guns are just using basic advertising techniques. Nobody got ahead by showing, or saying, that their product is no better than the next. This good advertising is what the rich kiddies see and then they beg their parents to buy the stuff. And no they are not a better player for their equipment, no matter what they think. What about lexus, it is just a glorified toyota. Why does it cost so much? the name? It is prestige marketing. I myself can't afford these 1000+ markers but I do like them

And top it off w/ crooked store owners and greedy field owners. I know for a fact that their is no money to be made by owning a store. He sells a 1400 dollar gun and maybe, just maybe he makes 50 bucks off of it. And whoever said that you can buy a gun wholesale for 800 that would normally cost 1200 plz tell me the site or give me a number to call b/c I could tell my buddy, the crooked store owner, to pick up a few. Someone once told me that it costs AGD 300 to make and Rt pro that they sell for 400. maybe 350 for store owners who then sell them for 400. It kinda makes me feel sorry for him. He does it b/c he enjoys it. But at the end of the month he will barely profit from it. Which is why he has to work another job to support his family. Crooked and greedy I think not.

The stores and fields are probably closing down b/c they're not making jack crap on sales and thus have to jack up prices for the regulars that play.

BTW what state are you from?

[JKR]

Well, I have skimmed through most of this thread and I must say what it needs is a bit of levity.

Do you really want to know what is wrong with paintball? The internet!

Young punks finding other young punks so they can beat their chests about their latest and greatest 20bps present from Mommy and Daddy.

Players brought up in a bygone era forced to relive the golden days instead of teaching new players the ropes.

Bonehead questions asked again and again and again while we are all forced to witness it and someone pays for the bandwidth.

The latest doo-dads and widgets gaining undue hype and sales almost instantly.

Players posting instead of shooting.

Semi players flaming pumpers. Pumpers flaming semi players.

Post counts higher than paintballs fired per year.

Am I guilty...yes.

Moral of post: Play more, surf less!

[soren2004]

Yeah, I completly agree. It's so bad for business when people talk about the BS going on in an industry, instead of spending more of their money.

In fact the only good paintballer is the kind that shuts up and forks over his/her money by the truckload with out questioning anything.

This problem was also discussed. The absolute lack of respect most people recieve from store/field owners is horrid. Most of these establishments treat their "primary" customers (those between the ages of 12 and 18) like dirt. They take their money and throw them out on the field with complete contempt. I was treated that way when i was younger, and i notice it still happening to the younger players today.

Even store owners try to "up sell" people from quality guns to used guns with worn parts, that they claim are 100% new. I dont see this as a competitive business practice. This is a lack of respect for your customers.

And the opinions of the pro's here backs up this view 100%. "Go spend your money and shut your mouth." I am sure that philosphy is going to win over more customers.

[mercury]

I really think it depends on the field you go to. I've had both good and bad experiences at fields. I just quit going to the fields that don't treat me right but I guess not everyone has that luxury. I figure that eventually, the fields that treat people wrong will reap what they sow.

On another note, I also have a problem with people simply saying to basically "deal with it." The object is to voice your concerns to others either directly or in forums such as this where the sole purpose of them being here is for people with a common interest to discuss things. To tell one to quit discussing something that genuinely concerns them (and is not against the forum rules) is to negate the purpose of these forums. People don't simply come here to discuss the weather and the next super marker.

Simply put, if you do not like the topic of discussion of a certain thread, then don't participate in it.

[JKR]

Let me put it to you guys another way since my first post missed the mark.

Have you guys ever dated a girl that wanted to constantly talk about the "feelings" between the two of you or your "relationship"? Meanwhile, all you want to do is go out and have a good time. Sort of my point here.

I am not opposed to paintball forums. However, I can't help but think that the guys with thousands and thousands of posts either don't have a life, or they haven't actually ever played paintball! Either way, I think the world would be a better place if we all unplugged a little more.