10 years of Paintball...and its going down hill

[silent running]

I think in some ways the sport has been going down hill, but as someone mentioned, as it bottoms out, it then will climb back up, because you have to admit you can have a lot of fun playing the game. I think paintball should have been a national sport by now, the reason it is not is because of the people running the sport, they could not adapt or their presences was the obstical. For example, in the most recent tournement series we were in 03, the guy running the event said at the captains meeting, "there is no such thing as cheating, it is only a foul", so if you do not get caught then it is OK, wipe away. When I went back to the guys to tell them, they could not beleive it. This guy had teams he sponsored and when we played against them we would walk off when hit, one smuge on us and they were still playing dripping with paint, yes there were ref's, but I will not go into that. So, do I think some people running the sport are bad news, yes. Are they all that way, no. In the past this guy had 50-60 teams in his series, last year he had to drop it because few if anybody wanted to play or I think trusted him.
We were slow to move to electronic guns, as we play with pumps every weekend. And yet we think letting everybody play with the same bps in the tournements is OK, we look forward to removing any restrictions. I think the only one it will hurt the most will be the people who have been cheating all along with these markers, now everybody can have them, and thus loose their techincal edge.
It costs money to run a field and pay staff and people run a business to make money. But you have freedom of choice of were you buy and play to some degree. We try to play every weekend and doing so we have had to figure out ways of making it work for us, pump guns for one.
There is a word for it, when something new comes along and changes things you have become accustomed to. I think the idea is to take the best of the past and bring that along in to the present, lets do away with wiping as acceptable and anyone who promotes it, by not giving them business.
No matter what, paintball is a competative sport. The best and worst of people comes out in the game. When you go around shootin up newbies it says a lot about your playing,,, style. I think the sport is going through changes, we all know it is not going to go away, but if it is going to reach the national level, it needs to be squeaky clean. This is what I got from the orginal posting. two more cents worth

[Blazestorm]

At IAO I was watching a game where one team had electros, and the other team was completely pump guns.

The game starts. The pump players RUN. The electro team sprays paint. The pump players try to gain some position. The electro team sprays paint. The pump players are snap-shooting as best they can. The electro team lanes them, merely wiggling their fingers and take them out comfortably. The pump players get wiped out, and leave the field. An electro player got hit, and WIPES.

Past vs. Present...

What's stopping the pump players from wiping? Nothing.
Most ignorant statement I've heard from Miscue, that is if you're serious.

Playing pump is cool, but it's a different style of play, if you don't like it, so be it.

Just because someone uses an electro doesn't mean they're a cheater or they "spray" paint...

[soren2004]

I didnt show up here looking for advice, I'm voicing a concern to other people who enjoy something I also do. Its called a casual discussion.

*Some* proffessionals in this field would of course take deep offense to me saying these things, and I would expect *some* of them to jump up and attack everything I have said. In fact, many people online are paid to do just that.

The problem is that I didn't come here to talk to them, I thought this might be a good forum for general discussions with other paintballers about what is going on in the sport. (similar to other webboards)

But we do seem to be saturated in the pro's here who arent looking at this webboard as a discussion opportunity, but as some means to forward their business.

To those who responded well and treated it at as a light hearted discussion, thanks for your replies.

To the pros out there who cant seem to wake up: A customer is here (you know, someone who spends money on your products). Attacking the customer doesn't build business(even if they are critical). It just shows a lack of insight and highlights another problem with paintball, IN GENERAL.

[SOAD8789]

not to be an *** or anything, but "pros" dont normally hang around on online forums. You will find pros at pbnation though, probably not AO.

I'm still not sure why you think it's going downhill. More players than ever, huge advances in technology, and we are on TV now. i guess im missing something...

[paintballfreak90]

not to be an *** or anything, but "pros" dont normally hang around on online forums. You will find pros at pbnation though, probably not AO.

I'm still not sure why you think it's going downhill. More players than ever, huge advances in technology, and we are on TV now. i guess im missing something...

Its just that im seeing more people back out and not as many people go play paintball for their first time and then keep playing. Im seeing people go play and then get creamed by the 22bps ramping guns and then never want to play agian. Maybe its just me but thats what im seeing.

[Recon by Fire]

Style, types of markers, types of field, none of that matters. It is all about the PLAYERS. And yes, the poor quality (i'm not talking skill) of players does hurt the business. Cheat, be vulgar, act like human trash all you want and claim it is part of the game, but it is not. It is part of you maybe, but not the game. Poor displays such as these are what brings the quality of the game down.

[Evil Bob]

What's stopping the pump players from wiping? Nothing.

A couple things stop them:

1) Its called "honor", "integrety", and "fairplay", something that seems to have left paintball years ago when cheating became commonplace and openly accepted. "Its part of the sport" many will claim, and they're 100% right, it is now part of the sport.

2) The type of person they are: Your typical pump player will play with a much higher degree of honor then your typical electro player. All the pump players I know (and there aint alot of them) simply wont cheat, its not in their nature. A large percentage of the guys who play both that I know have been known to wipe on occasion. A small percentage of the guys I know that play only electro and play tournies will generally openly cheat and even go so far as to brag about it.

It comes to a question of what type of person you are and where you draw the line morally: Some dont want to cheat at all and want to avoid the stigma of being labeled a cheater at all costs. Some cheat a little treading on the line. Some cheat openly and have no problems with breaking the rules.

-Evil Bob

[Jeffy-CanCon]

not a knock on you Jeffy, just quoted to help make my point.

i did start playing over 15 years ago and don't think semis or e guns ruined it. i don't really think paintball is ruined. it has merely changed.

i enjoy all styles of play with all different classes of markers (except stock...i suck at stock class). i actively seek better players to go against to enhance my skills and keep up with the joneses. i love playing pump speedball against all comers. shoot what you brung imho.

it's all in what you look for/want to get out of it, just like anything else.

the only class of play that i'm not really enthusiastic about is tourney. too many attitudes and chumps for my liking, though i do jump into practices with these type players to sharpen and to broaden my skills. it also helps me when reffing as i learn how people think and behave.

my two cents...got any change?

It's been 14 years for me, from rented Nelspots to e-markers and HPA. Pretty well no one I started with is still playing, but there are many people in my club who have been playing as long or longer than me. We've all gone through the same evolution, and we've all found a style we prefer to play. Mostly pump, some stock, and usually with semis for big games.

Tourney's are not my style, but it's mainly because I don't want to spend all day to play 8 five-minute games. We usually get about 15 ten-minute games when we play rec.

Soren2004 -

Paintball can be expensive, if you choose to make it so. Though it sounds like in your area (where?) the local businesses are not helping at all. But really, almost any hobby is expensive. I'm sure we all know someone with $1000 golf clubs, or a $1000 camera, or a $2000 PC.

[hitech]

What I don't understand is WHY things that use to be expressly against the rules are now perfectly acceptable. And not for any reason I can see other than peer pressure.

Examples:

1. Keeping your equipment with you. ALL of it (including tubes).
2. Not modifying or moving bunkers structures (i.e. deforming an air bunker to hide your hopper).
4. No baggy clothing that encourages bounces.
3. Semi auto only.

That's just off the top of my head. It seems to me that if enough people cheat "we" just change the rules so they aren't cheating anymore. I am constantly told to suck it up. Well, the cheaters need to suck it up and quit getting the rules changed.

[RusskiX]

Style, types of markers, types of field, none of that matters. It is all about the PLAYERS. And yes, the poor quality (i'm not talking skill) of players does hurt the business. Cheat, be vulgar, act like human trash all you want and claim it is part of the game, but it is not. It is part of you maybe, but not the game. Poor displays such as these are what brings the quality of the game down.

You may be correct, but the bigger question is what is it about paintball that attracts players with these qualities more today than before? Fifteen years ago cheaters were rare and heavily ostracized; based on comments made here and on other boards they are not discouraged, but rather we change rules to accomodate them. "Cheater" boards by name are now marketed and permitted.

Has the percentage of "bad" sports or "cheaters" really gone up because something in paintball encourages that type of player? Or is it just the growth of the sport makes them more visible, but the percentage is the same? Is it the growth among certain age groups?

[Blazestorm]

A couple things stop them:

1) Its called "honor", "integrety", and "fairplay", something that seems to have left paintball years ago when cheating became commonplace and openly accepted. "Its part of the sport" many will claim, and they're 100% right, it is now part of the sport.

2) The type of person they are: Your typical pump player will play with a much higher degree of honor then your typical electro player. All the pump players I know (and there aint alot of them) simply wont cheat, its not in their nature. A large percentage of the guys who play both that I know have been known to wipe on occasion. A small percentage of the guys I know that play only electro and play tournies will generally openly cheat and even go so far as to brag about it.

It comes to a question of what type of person you are and where you draw the line morally: Some dont want to cheat at all and want to avoid the stigma of being labeled a cheater at all costs. Some cheat a little treading on the line. Some cheat openly and have no problems with breaking the rules.

-Evil Bob

Stereotyping now are we? "Typical", I don't care about typical, any player can cheat. As strange as it may sound, cheaters in "tournament" paintball are a lot more uncommon than you think. Maybe it's because tournament players have more at stake and are willing to take risks? If you dropped 2 grand on an entry fee, another 2 grand for flight and hotel, then another grand on paint... you might be wanting to win a bit more, if you're competetive that is.

I love everyone's mentallity on AO... "OMG ELECTRO PLAYERS ARE CHEATING WEENIES, THEY ALWAYS SHOOT 20BPS and ALWAYS CARRY 5 PODS AND ALWAYS WIPE WHEN THEY CAN." "BUT PUMP PLAYERS WOULD NEVER DO THAT BECAUSE FOR NO REASON WHAT SO EVER THEY PLAY WITH "HONOR" AND "INTEGRITY"

More ignorance from the depths of AO...

Notice how I am not against pump players in any way, just stating that everyone here is stereotyping.

[Faddy]

In other words: Full autos are too expensive to buy and run for most players I have met. And without them, you cant compete, so why play? That needs to change.

This comment kinda bothered me. Basically, what you're telling us is, if we don't have the fastest, most expensive gun, that we can't compete? This is flawed on so many levels. First off, I'll agree with you to some extent, high end electros (they typically aren't full autos, quit using rhetoric) are a bit on the expensive side. New, they are expensive, used, they're really not that bad. I've been doing some shopping around a bit, and you can pick up an Angel LCD for less than $400 now, and they really aren't much slower than the highest end guns out there now. If you want vision, you can pick up an IR3 for $450 now. This is a much more reasonable price range, but this isn't really what I wanted to comment on.

First of all, you do not need a high end electro to compete. I've seen stock players (you know, 12 grams and 10 round tubes) on speedball fields holding their own against pretty good players with DM4s and Intimidators. This will sound very trite, but the gun doesn't make the player, the player makes the player. I personally have a basically stock 2k Cocker (no swing trigger, nothing electronic) and I am one of the better players out where I play. Two of my better friends each have DM4s, and I have to say, I've eliminated both of them, many more times than they've eliminated me. 80% of the people at the field I play at own some kind of electronic gun. There's a couple stock players and pump players out there as well, and they are quite good.

In other words: New high end electros are too expensive to buy and run for most players I have met, but used ones run about as well and are very reasonably priced. And without them, you can still compete, as long as you have a good attitude about the game and are confident in your skills. The game is continually changing, and we as players simply need to adapt.

Seriously man, it sounds like you're upset because most people don't want to play paintball the same way as you want to play. I'm going to tell you that no matter what gun you have, you can still compete and have a good time. I see people do it all the time. Oh, and this sport is not failing. It's growing by huge proportions everyday. There's more people getting into it each day than who are quitting. Likely, the reason your local stores look so run down is they're being undercut by the cheap and efficient online stores.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

Ive been playing paintball on and off for 15 years and now i am getting back into it i don't really like the idea of full auto's and insane rates of fire. but no matter how much you shoot the distance is the same. and in some of the fire fights ive been in with fast guns have one thing in common they eat paint and sooner or later your team or yourself would have to reload. and thats when i am going to get you. plus when it comes to speed ball does 22bps make that much of a difference? 12-15 is just as bad as 22 you have to improve on your tatics to win.

all i want is no breaking balls and good grouping of my shoots im am glad paintball has excelled to the level it has now. you ever try lugging around a vm68 i don't no more. i am glad the new guns that are out now they have my wife wanting a play. because of the auto capabilty and no break of balls she feels that she don't need to learn how to "walk the ball" just to shoot back a string of paintballs. she feels she can win and ever newby wants to feel that way.


theses are your choices don't play or do what i do rent a field for the day and invite your friends.

[RusskiX]

Stereotyping now are we? "Typical", I don't care about typical, any player can cheat. As strange as it may sound, cheaters in "tournament" paintball are a lot more uncommon than you think. Maybe it's because tournament players have more at stake and are willing to take risks? If you dropped 2 grand on an entry fee, another 2 grand for flight and hotel, then another grand on paint... you might be wanting to win a bit more, if you're competetive that is.

SNIP...

Notice how I am not against pump players in any way, just stating that everyone here is stereotyping.

Blaze,

Your first paragraph attempts to justify either the action or the mentality. By virtue of your own statement, any player can cheat if there is enough on the line. But by definition, tournament players put themselves in this situation more often, hence there would be more opportunity. It may seem like stereotyping, but the argument is more logical than it appears.

Not to say pumpers don't wipe

It would just be nice if everyone played with integrity.

[MedicDVG]

Style, types of markers, types of field, none of that matters. It is all about the PLAYERS. And yes, the poor quality (i'm not talking skill) of players does hurt the business. Cheat, be vulgar, act like human trash all you want and claim it is part of the game, but it is not. It is part of you maybe, but not the game. Poor displays such as these are what brings the quality of the game down.

I agree. Make cheating, overshooting, vulgar language, and wiping "part of the game" and it will breed those types of players. This is not a good base with which to build a sport. Imagine if you will the first time player; money is not an option, they really are motivated to get into the sport. But in game 1, some 15 y/o with a highend marker "whips up on the newbie" and plasters hime wiht a 5-10 ball overshoot, and then gets in the kids face about it, what impression are we leaving on the new players? I know I would not be nearly as adamant about this sport if that would have happened back in the day. I was fortunate to meet up and play with a group of folks that were there to really promote the sport and to play for fun. That is how I try to approach the sport now as I pass on my love of this great sport to the next generation of ballers.

So, we can either build this sport, or tear it down. So in one sense I guess I agree that paintball is going down hill in regards to 'mainstreaming' cheating. Now I know that not everyone does it, but when manufacturer's are buying the testing robots so they can 'beat them' and ramping and all that is considered the norm, we loose the sportsmanship of our sport. That is what I think royally sucks the most. .