10 years of Paintball...and its going down hill

[JimmyBeam]

the best day in paintball i had in the past year was playing renegade at an old abandoned cement factory. we had a chrono, fair refs, and lots of people. my local field has gotten, well boring. ive found paintball to be so much mre fullfilling when we actually go travel to play.

[tyrion2323]

The salvation of paintball is in the woods. Always has been, always will be. The woods are older and wiser than this game, and doubly so to it players. If you live in a city and aren't anywhere near the woods, my heart goes out to you.

Again we have the condescending view that speedball is somehow ruining the sport, and that the woods remains the "true, pure paintball experience." What a crock of junk. All forms of paintball have their virtues and failings. It's attitudes like this that continue to dichotomize our sport.

[MadPSIence]

He's not saying speedball is ruining paintball.. it's simply the housing for all of the negative things about paintball. The idea of the game itself is not bad.

Woods will long outlive speedball and pro-paintball. Let's put it this way...

Speedball is arena football ... and Woodsball is tossing the ball out back with some friends.

That analogy should be a treasure of knowledge right there

[tyrion2323]

He's not saying speedball is ruining paintball.. it's simply the housing for all of the negative things about paintball. The idea of the game itself is not bad.

Woods will long outlive speedball and pro-paintball. Let's put it this way...

Speedball is arena football ... and Woodsball is tossing the ball out back with some friends.

That analogy should be a treasure of knowledge right there

I disagree with you on two points:

"Speedball is the housing of all the negative things about paintball."
I don't really know how to say this any less bluntly....that's a false statement. Wiping, hot-balling and cheating ALL existed before speedball. Additionally, bad attitudes are not original to speedball - they also existed in woodsplay.

Speedball is arena football ... and Woodsball is tossing the ball out back with some friends.
Again, this statement would be true, but it has major holes. First of all, tournaments began in woodsball and were televised. Secondly, you're making the assumption that every game of speedball is a tournament. When I get together with friends, we play speedball. Not because it's better, but because we like it more.

I'll make a chart:

ISSUE------------SPEEDBALL----------WOODSBALL
Cheating....................X..................... .........X
Wiping.......................X.................... ..........X
Elitism........................X.................. ............X
Bad attitudes..............X.......................... ....X
Recreational................X..................... ........X
Tournament................X....................... (sometimes)
Fun............................X.................. ............X



My question is - Instead of trying to improve attitudes among ALL paintball players, why are we focusing only on a single group of them?

[Lohman446]

My question is - Instead of trying to improve attitudes among ALL paintball players, why are we focusing only on a single group of them?

Because, its easiest to blame all of ones problems on someone only enough like them to make it not totally inconceivable, as such its always the other "types" fault.

Think about it - misconceptions about paintball - there either the fault of non-players or B) The fault of those speedballers trying to act all "agg" and overshooting the newbs or C) Those psycho rednecks playing in the woods trying to act like there all military Depending on what side of the fence we are on. Since I am older and play both aspects of the game I just blame all the problems on "those dang immature children who have no sense of control and the parents who won't teach it to them". Makes it easier, that way I don't ahve to shoulder any of the blame myself, nor do I have to place blame on my friends.

I hope you all realize these are just examples and are not in any way my attitude towards anyoen. I think the "public image" problems of paintball are WAY WAY overrated by the players and we really don't have that much of an image issue with the majority of the public. Are there some extremists out there that might complain, sure but I really don't care.

[DarkRipper]

There's no need to be a douche about it. Using your method, we can categorize basically everything by the common denominator...but that doesn't mean it's right.

Or perhaps you're upset because I called you out on your moronic views against Genx...

Seems to me the only one "being a douche" here is you. Why not grow up a bit, learn to argue without resorting to childish insults, then come back and talk to the adults, mkay?

I'm sure you'll have some witty (or childishly snotty) retort to this, but to be honest, this is the internet and your opinion means jack **** to me.

Have a GREAT day, I insist.

DR

[hitech]

The woods are older and wiser than this game, and doubly so to it players. If you live in a city and aren't anywhere near the woods, my heart goes out to you.

:rofl:

I think it was a joke. Lighten up guys.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

...

The players, hmmm a little harsher than I would have put it but very similar view to my own. I think it's the whole gen x and younger generation growing up expecting to get a 100k a year job right out of school mentality that contributes to this. Not having to earn some things. Not being allowed to play with dangerous toys growing up robs them of vital experience that says nothing in life is free and some things can kill you. Unlike a video game where you get 6000 lives in a game or in real life if you eat too many marbles you can and pretty much deserve to die.

The same things were said 10-15 years ago about my generation as we came out of school. We had grown up in relative comfort, and expected immediately to be able to afford the same life we saw our parents enjoying, but it wasn't realistic. It's the same argument, just applied to a different age-group, and specifically with regard to paintball gear.

But it was true for us, and it's probably true for this case as well.

[bound for glory]

i like to play paintball in the woods. just like i've been doing scince 1985. i think tourny players are like a cancer.

[Lohman446]

i like to play paintball in the woods. just like i've been doing scince 1985. i think tourny players are like a cancer.

I take exception to that remark. I play tournaments, does that in itself make me any different than you? BTW - if it were not for a lot of the work I do at the field, along with other tournament players, in the woods your woodball course (at least here) would be a lot different than it is now.

[bound for glory]

you got me all wrong here lohman! i just see a lot of paintball's ill's coming from the tourny scene. i don't mean to offened ANY player. but at the same time, lets not try to forget what we already know. tourny paintball is wink and nod kind of game. cheater boards and ramps are a by-product of the hipster tourny circuit. i don't know many reasons for having to mark some poor sap 10-15 times unless that guy won't call out. answer me this: when is enough, enough?

[Lohman446]

you got me all wrong here lohman! i just see a lot of paintball's ill's coming from the tourny scene. i don't mean to offened ANY player. but at the same time, lets not try to forget what we already know. tourny paintball is wink and nod kind of game. cheater boards and ramps are a by-product of the hipster tourny circuit. i don't know many reasons for having to mark some poor sap 10-15 times unless that guy won't call out. answer me this: when is enough, enough?

We've already crossed the line. With the sudden allowance of markers that are clearly in violation of ASTM standards (without any scientific evidence ot prove there safety) we have crossed the line. We have gone from things that we had scientific approval of the "safety" of to something that we think (and hope) is safe. Have there been accidents yet? No there have not, at least not enough to create an uproar. Might it be safe? It might very well be safe? Do we have any indication that would help us in court if it proves its not? Nope...

We crossed the line when we allowed cheating with minor penalties. Blatant wiping does not get one suspended, shooting hot and velocity cheats which may result in an unsafe playing field are treated with a slap on the wrist.

We crossed the line a long time ago, enough was enough a long time ago. And yet we, and I include myself in that, I do play competetively, still push blindly forward and just pray that our total lack of control does not catch up to us.

I love the game.. I love the people I know from it... its a part of my life. I love it despite the overshooting, the cheating, and the attitudes. As has been stated before, if I was not already into it would I still like it? Its hard to say... I wonder if those who are new can enjoy the game in their innocence, certainly it must be a shock to play with the standards we have learned to accept today. I worry about that acceptance, both in how new players are treated, and in the legal and moral ramifications of them.

[tyrion2323]

Dark Ripper - I have presented my arguments clearly and concisely. I have made no inflammatory statements, and I have backed my arguments up with support. What are you arguing? Your message contains no message or point, aside from that you dislike me. Luckily I can live with that.

But just for kicks and giggles, let's take a look at what's been said between Pirata and myself:

Heck even a high priced intimidator is only a modified spyder. I am not meaning to bash any marker out there but even Angels follow a very similar principle.

This was the initial comment that got my attention. I responded to his post, stating why I disagreed with him. No flaming took place. At the end of this post, I made this statement:

I think the problem with players is that the attitudes in paintball...well, a lot of them stink. Pros surely don't set a great example, nor do a great many Old schoolers, who can't seem to find a positive thing to say about newer players. These attitudes are picked up by new players - they emulate the pros and their peers, all the while rejecting older players who look down upon them. Additionally, many players are quite young. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, we have to remember that youngsters think and act differently from older people, and when we witness poor behavior, very few of us actually make the effort to explain why such behavior is wrong.

Then he responded, stating why he grouped those markers together. He also stated,

The players, hmmm a little harsher than I would have put it but very similar view to my own. I think it's the whole gen x and younger generation growing up expecting to get a 100k a year job right out of school mentality that contributes to this. Not having to earn some things. Not being allowed to play with dangerous toys growing up robs them of vital experience that says nothing in life is free and some things can kill you. Unlike a video game where you get 6000 lives in a game or in real life if you eat too many marbles you can and pretty much deserve to die.

Well, obviously I disagreed with what he said:

I'm not quite sure where you're getting your generalizations, but I really don't think that today's youth is how you're portraying us to be

I also stated that, while I understood his grouping of markers, I simply disagreed with them. I would further split up the groups.

He responded with:

I was merely putting them into 3 basic categories. If that's above your pay grade I am sorry. Forget it.

Insulting my intelligence after what I had perceived to be a very well conducted discussion. I'm sorry, but It's not above my "payload." I'm quite capable of grasping simplistic groupings. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean that I'm a moron...

I responded, stating that there was "no reason to be a douche about it." He acted like a jerk by insulting me. I said that it was uncalled for, AGAIN stating that I simply disagreed. I also mentioned that stereotyping the entirerety of young players was, well...ridiculous.

My entire message during this thread - you can look if you want - is that attitudes on ALL sides and spectrums need a makeover. I stand by that.

But now on to you:

Seems to me the only one "being a douche" here is you. Why not grow up a bit, learn to argue without resorting to childish insults, then come back and talk to the adults, mkay?

Well, I've just presented the sequence of events, and have explained my behavior. Of course, being a 21 year old with three degrees and heading off to school for another two, I feel quite confident in my "adult-ness".

I'm sure you'll have some witty (or childishly snotty) retort to this, but to be honest, this is the internet and your opinion means jack **** to me.

I never presented a witty or childishly snotty retort. I argue points that I disagree with and provide support for them. But that doesn't matter, since you obviously don't care about this.

Have a GREAT day, I insist.

DR

I will, thank you.

[El Pirata]

Instead of complaining about my classification of markers into basic categories, how would you classify them? Live the solution.

[tyrion2323]

I would use a connectionist-model.

Pirata, I do want to apologize for calling you a douche. I felt insulted by your comment, but I shouldn't have said that. Your classification table works, I just wouldn't use it myself.

Here is my model: