The French are Evil!

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Most RUSSIANS don't think to highly or layally about Stalin now (or then for that matter)!

I agree with 1de on most points. Please CB don't tell me that the Soviet army reached Berlin just decided to stop. The U.S. army was racing east to stop the Soviets as much (or more so) as to defeat the Germans. 1de gives the exact reasons why they stopped.

I disagree with 1de on the point above. People were crying and wailing when Stalin died. He had indoctrinated himself so into their lives. Some of the people were shedding crocidile tears but many people were genuinely upset as they truly believed all the propaganda about Stalin.

[Collegeboy]

No, after Khru. gave his Secret speech and after Gorby did his speech on Stalin, most Russians do not think to highly of Stalin, most people in the world don't feel to highly for Stalin. But that is what made the Russians stay in WWII, they didn't fight for Stalin they fought for Russia. The old saying that Russians cried "for Stalin" as they went to battle is a load of crap.

When did Germany surrender? When was Potsdam?

As to the rest, I will answer them when I get back from Physical Therapy.

[1stdeadeye]

Question?

Originally posted by Collegeboy
No, after Khru. gave his Secret speech and after Gorby did his speech on Stalin, most Russians do not think to highly of Stalin, most people in the world don't feel to highly for Stalin. But that is what made the Russians stay in WWII, they didn't fight for Stalin they fought for Russia. The old saying that Russians cried "for Stalin" as they went to battle is a load of crap.

Why do you keep calling the Soviets Russians? WWII was fought by the entire Soviet Union, not just the Russians. Jeesh I thought you were highly educated!

When did Germany surrender? When was Potsdam?

Again, you are trying to compare history to your hypotheticals. The war would have been much longer had it been either the US or USSR taking on the Germans alone. The difference is that the US did have the Bombers, Fighters, and Atomic Weapons to defeat the Germans. The Soviets had bodies. Have you ever heard the term pyrric victory? Yes, the Soviets may indeed have won but been so devastated by German Atomic weapons that the few survivors wouldn't really care.

CB you can not state that a non-nuclear power could win TOTAL war against a nuclear power. Germany was very close to producing Atomic Weapons. The Soviets stole theirs in the late 1940s thanks to the Rosenburgs. Had the Allied bombers not destroyed the German production, mushroom clouds would have been popping up all over the Soviet Union. Maybe Germany could not have conquered the USSR, but they sure could have destroyed it utterly with atom bombs. Also, please do not think that Hitler would have hesitated to drop nuclear weapons on the Soviets. That animal would have killed anyone!

As to the rest, I will answer them when I get back from Physical Therapy.

Enjoy!

[Rebel46_99]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
No, after Khru. gave his Secret speech and after Gorby did his speech on Stalin, most Russians do not think to highly of Stalin, most people in the world don't feel to highly for Stalin. But that is what made the Russians stay in WWII, they didn't fight for Stalin they fought for Russia. The old saying that Russians cried "for Stalin" as they went to battle is a load of crap.

I go away on vacation for a week and what do I find at AO when I come back?

I find CB continues to flog everyone with his constant barrage of BS. Below is a comment from a previous post of mine.

***Once again you insult us by "demanding" that we give you proof on something. The typical childish, "I know you are, but what am I?" response. Yet... almost every post of yours in this thread is riddled with hypotheticals, conjecture and what ifs.... as in, "Chances are..." "More than likely..." and so on...***

I'll ask it again, CB. WHERE is your PROOF for "KNOWING" how and what the Soviets, Japanese and Germans felt during WWII? WHAT makes you so privvy to the insights of other cultures during that time? And don't tell me it's because you have spoken to other students from those countries. THEY weren't there either. Were you somehow part of the "inner circles" of their war councils that allows you to make the assinine statements that you do? You speak on ALL of these subjects here at AO as if YOU, and only YOU, had a direct, personal and first-hand knowledge in their development.

One other thing.... Why won't you "touch your 'real world' thesis"? Could it be that you don't want to leave your own little fantasy world where you are right and everyone else is wrong?

Freedom of speech and thought is a great thing. BUT... If I were Tom and the Mods, your incessant, unadulterated brand of BS would see you banned because of your persistence in repeating the SAME OLD THING.... OVER and OVER and OVER.

DW

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Rebel46_99


I go away on vacation for a week and what do I find at AO when I come back?

I find CB continues to flog everyone with his constant barrage of BS. Below is a comment from a previous post of mine.

***Once again you insult us by "demanding" that we give you proof on something. The typical childish, "I know you are, but what am I?" response. Yet... almost every post of yours in this thread is riddled with hypotheticals, conjecture and what ifs.... as in, "Chances are..." "More than likely..." and so on...***

I'll ask it again, CB. WHERE is your PROOF for "KNOWING" how and what the Soviets, Japanese and Germans felt during WWII? WHAT makes you so privvy to the insights of other cultures during that time? And don't tell me it's because you have spoken to other students from those countries. THEY weren't there either. Were you somehow part of the "inner circles" of their war councils that allows you to make the assinine statements that you do? You speak on ALL of these subjects here at AO as if YOU, and only YOU, had a direct, personal and first-hand knowledge in their development.

One other thing.... Why won't you "touch your 'real world' thesis"? Could it be that you don't want to leave your own little fantasy world where you are right and everyone else is wrong?

Freedom of speech and thought is a great thing. BUT... If I were Tom and the Mods, your incessant, unadulterated brand of BS would see you banned because of your persistence in repeating the SAME OLD THING.... OVER and OVER and OVER.


DW

The proof for how the USSR feel are in the numerous journals of WWII, in the history of Russia and the countries in the USSR.

AS for Japan the proof lies in how they felt about the war at the end and right after. They have been journals and speeches and all sort of evidence to suggest that the Japanese didn't feel like they need to fight a battle for imperialism. That if they would stop fighting they wouldn't be invaded and have to fight, but the Russians were already invaded and had to fight.

As to 1de, there is no such thing as a pyrrhic victory for USSR since everyone of there victories are such. The people of the USSR are so hard that they can put up with just about anything. Any victory is a victory to them no matter the odds.

I won't touch the real world idea for almost no American can ever say they understand what the real world is. For an American to say that is down right sad.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


As to 1de, there is no such thing as a pyrrhic victory for USSR since everyone of there victories are such. The people of the USSR are so hard that they can put up with just about anything. Any victory is a victory to them no matter the odds.

A pyrrhic victory has no winners.

I think you are overestimating the Soviets toughness. Only the Japanese willingly committed suicide. How many Soviet Kamakazi's have you ever heard of. If the Japanese could be beaten, so could the Soviets by nuclear weapons!

[Rebel46_99]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


The proof for how the USSR feel are in the numerous journals of WWII, in the history of Russia and the countries in the USSR.

AS for Japan the proof lies in how they felt about the war at the end and right after. They have been journals and speeches and all sort of evidence to suggest that the Japanese didn't feel like they need to fight a battle for imperialism. That if they would stop fighting they wouldn't be invaded and have to fight, but the Russians were already invaded and had to fight.

As to 1de, there is no such thing as a pyrrhic victory for USSR since everyone of there victories are such. The people of the USSR are so hard that they can put up with just about anything. Any victory is a victory to them no matter the odds.

I won't touch the real world idea for almost no American can ever say they understand what the real world is. For an American to say that is down right sad.

Again, you speak of journals and speeches, which equates to ONE person's point of view, without any references.

Your statement of "Any victory is a victory to them no matter the odds.", can be applied to ANY person, state or nation. (Besides being a little redundant.) And yet again, you speak as if YOU are the ruling authority on what type of victory it is.

The "real world" issue dealt with the "Bowling for Columbine" thread and your refusal to understand those "realities" that most of us deal with on a day-to-day basis. As a reasonably intelligent American, I would not presume to discuss "realities" of everyday life in another country, as you so freely do. Oh, but then, only you are qualified to tell us what people from other countries think, feel and believe. Misguided child in a man's body.... I think NOT!

DW

[aaron_mag]

Oh my god I can't handle this BS!!!! First off I never said Stalin was well loved now but people were wailing in the streets when he died. I have listened to a documentary on NPR where two Soviets discussed the effect of his death on the country. One truly loved Stalin and mourned him at the time of his death until he learned the truth years later (and how the propaganda machine had worked over his mind).

The other's mother had been sent off to Siberia so he was happy that Stalin died but kept it to himself out of fear. He did, however, feel that there were plenty of others around that were faking their grief.

AS for Japan the proof lies in how they felt about the war at the end and right after. They have been journals and speeches and all sort of evidence to suggest that the Japanese didn't feel like they need to fight a battle for imperialism. That if they would stop fighting they wouldn't be invaded and have to fight, but the Russians were already invaded and had to fight.

I don't know where you get this information. According to the NUMEROUS Japanese friend I have the Japanese were terrified about what the Americans would do to their country. They surrendered because the atomic bomb had given them NO HOPE stave off occupation. Also every single one of my friends has stated that they were amazed by how they were treated and one even told me that people didn't want Mac Arthur to leave because they thought he had been so good to the Japanese people.

As to 1de, there is no such thing as a pyrrhic victory for USSR since everyone of there victories are such. The people of the USSR are so hard that they can put up with just about anything. Any victory is a victory to them no matter the odds.

Listen to yourself! How can you claim to be a impassionate researcher of history when you say things like this? No matter what the odds? Every nation is made up of human beings that are no better no worse than other areas. The only differences are the institutions, resources, education, etc that allow one nation to prosper and have a stable environment while the other may be messed up. I suppose these super human USSR citizens didn't really break apart and lose control of the eastern block countries. I suppose that we really lost the cold war? I suppose that these same super citizens aren't moving over here when they get the chance to pursue a better life?

I need to stop answering these....

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


A pyrrhic victory has no winners.

I think you are overestimating the Soviets toughness. Only the Japanese willingly committed suicide. How many Soviet Kamakazi's have you ever heard of. If the Japanese could be beaten, so could the Soviets by nuclear weapons!

Over estimate the soviet toughness, that is laughable. I am underestimating it.

No Rebel it can not be applied so. The soviets were out to push the Germans out of their home land, they would have done what ever it took, gone through what ever it takes, etc... To accomplish this goal. A few atomic bombs were only strengthening their resolve to do so. As to the rest, ah the power of ignorance.

I am not saying you did, my response was written before I ever read your post. The USSR went into Shock when Stalin died for utter not knowing what is going to happen next. This man was invincible, his name means Man of Steel, and here he is dieing. It was an utter shock to the whole USSR. Quietly people were celebrating some places, but in general it shocked the nation drastically.

They surrendered to not be invaded right, that is what you are saying right. Russia was already invaded. And McArthur treated them greatly.

have you read what the Soviets when through in the Civil War, what they went through in the 30's, what they went through during the war. Since it seems no, you do not even know where I am coming from.

10,000,000 people died from 1918-1929 of starvation from the Civil War, a 1,000,000 were killed in between 1936 and 38, 30,000,000 died in WWII, what other nation in the world could continue to put up these numbers and still do what the Russians did. You can not over emphasis the power of the Soviets during this war, how the citizens did what they did, while dieing of hunger.

You all have NO IDEA what the regular Soviet went through during this time frame. Yet you all say I am stupid for trying to shine some light on the situation.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


Over estimate the soviet toughness, that is laughable. I am underestimating it.

No Rebel it can not be applied so. The soviets were out to push the Germans out of their home land, they would have done what ever it took, gone through what ever it takes, etc... To accomplish this goal. A few atomic bombs were only strengthening their resolve to do so. As to the rest, ah the power of ignorance.

A few atomic bombs? You think that the USSR could have continued fighting if faced with nuclear annihilation? After Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad were removed from the face of the earth, the USSR would have surrendered. No nation can withstand a nuclear onslaught and win. That is why Mutually Assured Destruction kept the peace during the Cold War! If the USSR was all powerful, why did they stop in Berlin? The USSR, especially in the condition their country was in, was no match for the US immediatly after WWII. We had the Bomb, the bombers and the industrial might to roll them. Our industrial might is what kept the Soviets from rolling on.

They surrendered to not be invaded right, that is what you are saying right. Russia was already invaded. And McArthur treated them greatly.

That's right. We defeated them and then rebuilt them. We did not conquer them and subjugate them! *cough* Eastern Europe *cough*

10,000,000 people died from 1918-1929 of starvation from the Civil War, a 1,000,000 were killed in between 1936 and 38, 30,000,000 died in WWII, what other nation in the world could continue to put up these numbers and still do what the Russians did. You can not over emphasis the power of the Soviets during this war, how the citizens did what they did, while dieing of hunger.


No one has an endless supply of soldiers (except the Chinese and Indians). You can't recoup those types of losses. Yet you claim that the USSR would have paid any price to win, even in the face of Nuclear Destruction. With those kinds of losses it is no wonder why JOSEPH STALIN demanded the Allies open a second front in Europe to take some of the pressure off of his fronts. I guess he was so confident in his troops, that he wanted to make the Brits and Americans look like glory hounds by coonducting the GREATEST INVASION IN HISTORY. Can't wait to here your claim that D-Day was overrated!

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Originally posted by Collegeboy


Over estimate the soviet toughness, that is laughable. I am underestimating it.

No Rebel it can not be applied so. The soviets were out to push the Germans out of their home land, they would have done what ever it took, gone through what ever it takes, etc... To accomplish this goal. A few atomic bombs were only strengthening their resolve to do so. As to the rest, ah the power of ignorance.

A few atomic bombs? You think that the USSR could have continued fighting if faced with nuclear annihilation? After Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad were removed from the face of the earth, the USSR would have surrendered. No nation can withstand a nuclear onslaught and win. That is why Mutually Assured Destruction kept the peace during the Cold War! If the USSR was all powerful, why did they stop in Berlin? The USSR, especially in the condition their country was in, was no match for the US immediatly after WWII. We had the Bomb, the bombers and the industrial might to roll them. Our industrial might is what kept the Soviets from rolling on.

They surrendered to not be invaded right, that is what you are saying right. Russia was already invaded. And McArthur treated them greatly.

That's right. We defeated them and then rebuilt them. We did not conquer them and subjugate them! *cough* Eastern Europe *cough*

10,000,000 people died from 1918-1929 of starvation from the Civil War, a 1,000,000 were killed in between 1936 and 38, 30,000,000 died in WWII, what other nation in the world could continue to put up these numbers and still do what the Russians did. You can not over emphasis the power of the Soviets during this war, how the citizens did what they did, while dieing of hunger.


No one has an endless supply of soldiers (except the Chinese and Indians). You can't recoup those types of losses. Yet you claim that the USSR would have paid any price to win, even in the face of Nuclear Destruction. With those kinds of losses it is no wonder why JOSEPH STALIN demanded the Allies open a second front in Europe to take some of the pressure off of his fronts. I guess he was so confident in his troops, that he wanted to make the Brits and Americans look like glory hounds by coonducting the GREATEST INVASION IN HISTORY. Can't wait to here your claim that D-Day was overrated!

Did the US have the bomb at the time of Berlin? How many Bombs could Germany produce if they even could get one done.

The Soviets ended up recouping them time and time again.

As for D-Day I think Inchon was better, but that is IMO.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


That is about that stupidest comment I heard in my life. How can a disagreement over a yet to be justified war, turn a person from an ally to an enemy. Looks like someone actually believes the Bush saying "you are with us or you are against us." When will it stop, will you be happy with the invasion of Germany and France, because since they don't agree with us, they must be pro-terrorist.

Are you naturally stupid or do you have to work at it daily?

Show me where I said ENEMIES, moron.

God your stupidity is making MY head hurt.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Since it seems no, you do not even know where I am coming from.

NOBODY knows where the hell you're coming from, because NOBODY spends as much time as YOU do with their heads up the backsides.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
10,000,000 people died from 1918-1929 of starvation from the Civil War, a 1,000,000 were killed in between 1936 and 38, 30,000,000 died in WWII, what other nation in the world could continue to put up these numbers and still do what the Russians did. You can not over emphasis the power of the Soviets during this war, how the citizens did what they did, while dieing of hunger.

You all have NO IDEA what the regular Soviet went through during this time frame. Yet you all say I am stupid for trying to shine some light on the situation.

No one is arguing that the Soviets didn't suffer during the war. No one is arguing that their army didn't perform an amazing thing when the cut off the supply lines and forced the German army into retreat! No one is even arguing that they didn't do all this while starving and freezing to death! We do not need you to shine light upon this situation! I did read Enemy at the Gates (and I am not talking about that horrible Jude Law movie) which discusses the siege of Stalingrad. The book presents a struggling Russia that brilliantly encircles the German army and turned the tables on them. The Germans still might have broken out (the German General wanted to) but that idiot of a Goering told Hitler that he could supply the army from the air. In the end what really decimated the invading German force was lack of supplies. They were starving to death and had no fuel or ammunition. Of course the Russians played a key role in causing this to happen but isn't it logical that the allied bombing campaign also played a significant role in this lack of resupply? I suppose you will say, however, that the author of that book after doing years of research and interviewing actual participants in the battle has less knowledge the subject than you.

[aaron_mag]

Here is an excerpt from the book. I had to take one from online since I have no idea what I did with my copy...

"Terrified Russian soldiers, lacking faith in their officers and in the Red Army itself, rushed to join a swelling throng of deserters. The Germans herded them into ragged columns that marched west, away from the sounds of war. The Russians were happy. Capture meant they had survived."

Here are your Russian superman who can face any hardship. I am not mocking them by the way but mocking your totally fabricated mythology. This was at the beginning of the war when the Germans were routing the Red Army. When the tables reversed the (and the German leadership had abandoned the army to its fate) the Germans acted in a similar manner. We are all human beings after all.....