What is happening to America (Rant)

[-=Squid=-]

Fine then do not go.

I doubt he needed you to tell him not to.

[PissedGodzilla]

Fine then do not go.

I understand what you are saying here, but you also have to remember that all of your examples focused on children... they are FORCED to go by their parents even if they don't believe...

[-Carnifex-]

Fine then do not go.

I don't go.

What I'm saying is that maybe not everyone believes that clothing is a respect issue when it comes to God.

[Enos Shenk]

I am done arguing with you.

Well there goes any pretensions twords respecting your opinions from me. If your going to start a discussion topic, then cry about being "offended" by the way someone dresses, the least you could do is debate your point in an intelligent manner besides emoticons.

gg

[maxama10]

I always figured that putting on your best clothes for curch was a form of respect for God. That being said, I have no problem with people wearing whatever they feel is appropriate. One of my major poblems with the people at church is they turn it into a fashion show. Dress for God, not for each other. Who cares what so-and-so is wearing? When it comes down to it, I don't think God cares what you wear as long as you are there for the right reason.

well said

[ScatterPlot]

OK guys, gotta go back to Scripture on this one. When you do listen in church, find out answers to your questions, find out stuff... well, it pays off. Please don't read that as trying to brag, just saying that I have been a Christian all my life and have learned some things because I do pay attention. Now I also wanna say that if I need to I will give you the book-chapter-verse version of this, but I don't have it handy and I need to go to bed . But anyway, remember the whole "Eat meat or don't eat meat" debate? I think it was Paul, maybe Peter, but I can't really remember. The problem was that some of the Christians were eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols. They found nothing wrong with this, since there is only one God. The Bible says that the weaker Christians were being pulled away, since they thought eating the meat was wrong. It says in there that the conclusion was to not make your brother stumble. It was something like, "If my eating meat causes my brother to stumble, let me never eat meat again." If dressing in a certain way offends people, don't do it! Who cares if they are justified in their being offended?
Plus dressing nicely shows that you are there because you respect and fear God (to all you who don't know what fear means, no it's not "aah i'm scared", it's more of a respect thing). To all you who hate "organized religion": I am sorry you got a bad view of God. Now I'm not saying that all Christians will be saved ("Not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of Heaven"). I'm saying you just got a glimpse of those who are messing up. People who wear their religion as a burden, no, that's not right. I will dare say that most of the Christians are not really Christians at all. Most people think religion is about themselves, but guess what? It's about GOD!
Another thing about burdens. All these "rules" are not there because God wants us to be unhappy. If everyone was a true Christian, think about it. Perfect. Name one thing that God wishes for us to do that isn't good for us (not like singing or whatever, that's worship, and worship is for God). Think about it. Premarital sex? Yeah, much less broken homes, pretty much no STD's, you name it. Lying? Can you say "Enron"? Politics? Advertising? Nothing would be a risk. As much as you like to say it, no, there is never a right time to lie. Everything God does is for a reason, and like it or not you aren't gonna be able to figure it out every time. So don't complain when something goes wrong to you. Do you think Jesus liked dying on the cross? Do you think anyone enjoyed being martyred?
Well my post sorta deviated from where I thought it should go, but they're my beliefs none the less.
But about the whole dressing up thing- it's not about who looks the best. I'm not gonna turn down anyone who truly wants to know about God. But if you can, dress nicely. It shows respect. Nobody here would ever even THINK of going to a funeral or wedding in your "grubbies" as we call em here in the south. Now if that's all you got, I'm not gonna send you away at all. I'm not saying that clothes get you into Heaven. But for crying out loud, the guy DIED for you. Really think about it. You see all this on TV, oh this guy died saving a child from a burning building in this movie, how great, must feel weird being saved at the cost of another. Well guess what? He died for YOU! He loves you enough that He died for you! You dress up nicely to go to the funeral of some relative you barely knew. Why? To show some respect. Why dress up for church? Same reason. Show some respect. Just think, you are going to worship and learn about the greatest man that ever existed. Why not show a little respect?

Please let me know if any of that has been too holier-than-thou, I don't wanna come across like that at all. People like that are ruining the church.

And any of you who said you have questions...
Send me a PM. Please. I want to help you in your walk with God. Don't know of a local church to go to? Trust me, I can find one for you. And have people there help you with anything you need help with. Any questions AT ALL, please, let me know. I might not know the answer but I can certainly get you one. And remember, just because one preacher didn't know all you needed to know does not mean in the least that the answer is not out there. Nobody knows all the answers, that's one reason for church itself. I wanna help any of you I can. Wanna argue about something? PM me and we can meet up on AIM or something. I'm not on very much so let me know and I'll talk to you when I can. I can get hookups to whereever you happen to be, and can find an answer, maybe not from me, but from someone for most any question you can think of. Challenge me, try to stump me, I wanna help. Thanks for reading.
Bert

[-=Squid=-]

For the record: Nobody is going to read that.

[jpdgas]

Well, I read it, and it says pretty much what I said, with more words. I'm glad we agree, but i think the attention span of most readers here is a little shorter
Good post though, its always a good sign when people are willing to answer the tough questions.

[RTDynaflow]

Not at all. That is your right. However that being the case, stay out of my Church then and we will both be happy!

Something kind of stands out odd about this sentence. It almost suggest you go to church for your own salvation, and that is all. I kind of wish I payed a little more attention when I was younger, perhaps I would have some exact verse to quote you. Is it not your opinion that you should try to help others find God? If he (squid) ever showed the slightest interest in my church, I would incourage his coming. Regardless of my personally view of him, I should go out of my way to try and "help" him.

Want to comment on your first post... So, if I go to church with my empire shirt and some faded jeans I am being disrespectful? I find this so obsurd. If I go with my portable playstation and dolby 5.1 and set it up beside you, am I being disrespectful? Hell yes. I agree with the majority of your original point. If the clothing is distracting, or someone is talking - not paying attention and diverting yours - then yes, this is disrespectful to you, to themslves, to the pastor and God. <--- this is applicable to all religions and life in general. Gameboy, sexualy attentive clothing, and talking/passing notes is disrespectful. Wearing faded jeans and a T shirt is not.

I am personally so sick and tired of people playing dress up church. They have the attitude that as long as they go every Sunday, give 10% of their wages, and dress up in the very best, they are Christians. I Disagree. Of course, the preceding is my opinion. It is when they have the audacity to tell me, "you are not a christian because you don't always attend and when you do you have jeans and a T on". Same thing goes - Once I had a guy beside me comment on my offering. If I had no impulse control, I would have decked him right there.

I am sure someone who attends church regularly could quote you some passages. I am in the same boat as Captain_jack, in a way atleast. Although wouldn't consider myself athiest; that is niether here, nor there. As the subject isn't me personally.

I understand what you are saying here, but you also have to remember that all of your examples focused on children... they are FORCED to go by their parents even if they don't believe...

I want to comment on this... I agree and disagree with forcing kids to go to church. This, IMO, is on a slightly different subject. Parents now have such little patience - they don't know how to talk to thier children and understand their objections. They don't attemp to reason with them; because they tried to do it as if they were talking to an adult, and failed. They force their kids to attend and when the child says why, they are met with, "because I said so". So when their kids go, forced to and unwilling, they don't care. They don't want to listen, they rebel. They will do anything not to pay attention, even if they are interested. This behavour continues into their adolescence and becomes increasingly worse. Is this the parents fault? Absolutely. Their children are direct representation of how they were raised and life experiences (along with genetically controlled factors).

I was one of them. However I never took a gameboy to church, but I remember passing notes and talking in the back. Something you need to understand, kids (8-14) don't have the same comprehention that adults do. I remember never understanding what the pastor was attempting to say. I was confused and couldn't ask my parents what he was talking about. After getting ssssshhed fifty times, I didn't want to talk about it in the car. I didn't want to ever go agian. There are more factors then just this...

Attention span
Comprehention
Obedience
The pastor himself can be at fault, atleast to a degree. The majority of his sermons, are they aimed at the adults? Usually yes. Can you honestly expect a 10 year old to sit still and pay attention when he doesn't know what is going on?

The problem is not with the kids, the adults is the issue. If they allow their child to take a gameboy into church, then they probably fit into the "dress up church family" category. Same thing, if they allow their 16 year old daughter to wear something that would make me want to run away with them, they most likely fit into the above category. If they themsleves act immature and don't take anything home with them - see have the attitude you aren't good enough to come to church because... - them they usually fit the above mention category.

1stDE, allow me to reiterate... Did your lord dress up in fancy clothing and wear jewels. Did he believe everyone should? Did he look at the externals and say you aren't good enough? Did he not tear up a church is a rage over their fake, dress up attitude? Did he ridicule the lady who "offered" up the once coin of silver? If your religion is based on the same mine is, then the answer to all of teh above is "No". A stern one at that. Your salvation isn't dependant upon going to church every week and dressing up in nice clothes. Do you have to go to church to worship? Do you have give tithe to a "church"? I believe not, however this is where people get into arguements over translations and what they mean.

Don't judge another less you judge yourself.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Now I put up my disclaimer
I am not blaming preachers and pastors for the above. I "think" what you were trying to relay was, you are tired of the disrepect. In your clothing comment, I believe you meant lack there of clothing. Don't take any of my above comments as a direct attack on you. I, in no way, meant to imply you are "fake", or not sincere. I say this, knowing anything can be taken out of context and this would be espcially is to do here. It is just my view - we all have our own. I don't expect anyone to fully agree with me. I do expect atleast one quote of my post; do it with logic. To summarize my entire point: Before you point fingers at other, point one to yourself. Err... I think that was my point... I don't know anymore =/. It is important to remember, because someone worships different then you, you are no one to judge them. Someone else has that position .

[ubooze]

My mom brought this subject repeatedly up after attending certain churches in the area.

Hats on ALL the time, tank tops, basketball jersies, torn and tattered pants, lanyards and chains out of every pocket.... I understand her grip for tradition, and I fully agree.

Everytime I say I am going to wear jeans, she says "Lumberjacks wear jeans." or "Jeans are for work." That is when I have time to get ready for church. Sometimes I don't always have a chance to put on some fancy cloths, so jeans are a last chance thing.

I, personally, would also like to see more people dressing "properly". I used to wear a suit regularly, but that just didn't work well. So now I ALWAYS wear a dress pants, a nice shirt, matching socks and dress shows. I don't always comb my hair, but my attire is always appropriate.

Same thing with the ladies. They are pushing the envelope too far.

What happens in some European countries when you show up to mass skantly(sp?) clad with knees, shoulders, or belly exposed? They don't let you in. Period. Dress properly or don't come. I have seen the priest reject many a person. He is like the clothing bouncer. :-P


Oh, about the game boy deal. Never, ever, EVER would I EVER so much as think about pulling that stunt off. My dad used to get mad at me for bringing toy cars to mass. TOY CARS!!! Eventually he kinda got used to the idea, but if I so much as squeeked or started goofing off, I could expect to get a beating. I was to be properly behaved and patient. You gotta start early or you'll never learn. People like that will grow into the habit of talking loudly during mass or leaving early for their convenience. Also, the church is a place of prayer, not socializing. Small talk is to be outside or the parish building, not IN the church.

Thats just the way I view it, live it, and some may say. suffer it. Thats the way the life a very traditional Polish family is.

[-=Squid=-]

This thread made me realize how hypocritcal 1de is.

[ubooze]

This thread made me realize how hypocritcal 1de is.

I hope that was said in sarcasm. I don't think this is an appropriate place to be commenting off topic on observations that you have created. He struck upon an interesting topic, and maybe his arguement is not consistent, but damn, calling him hypocritical is a rather mean thing to do when he is talking about something he feels needs to be adressed.

Maybe "unclear on his own standpoint" or "confused" would be more appropriate.

P.S.: I'm on a post roll here, so if my arguements don't make the least of sense, feel free to ignore, but don't comment.

[-=Squid=-]

I hope that was said in sarcasm. I don't think this is an appropriate place to be commenting off topic on observations that you have created. He struck upon an interesting topic, and maybe his arguement is not consistent, but damn, calling him hypocritical is a rather mean thing to do when he is talking about something he feels needs to be adressed.

Maybe "unclear on his own standpoint" or "confused" would be more appropriate.

P.S.: I'm on a post roll here, so if my arguements don't make the least of sense, feel free to ignore, but don't comment.

I guess I'm just looking at how he is so offended by jeans and a T-shirt at church, then reading things he has to say on thordics forums etc...

Two faces.

[RTDynaflow]

My mom brought this subject repeatedly up after attending certain churches in the area.

Hats on ALL the time, tank tops, basketball jersies, torn and tattered pants, lanyards and chains out of every pocket.... I understand her grip for tradition, and I fully agree.

Everytime I say I am going to wear jeans, she says "Lumberjacks wear jeans." or "Jeans are for work." That is when I have time to get ready for church. Sometimes I don't always have a chance to put on some fancy cloths, so jeans are a last chance thing.

I, personally, would also like to see more people dressing "properly". I used to wear a suit regularly, but that just didn't work well. So now I ALWAYS wear a dress pants, a nice shirt, matching socks and dress shows. I don't always comb my hair, but my attire is always appropriate.

Same thing with the ladies. They are pushing the envelope too far.

What happens in some European countries when you show up to mass skantly(sp?) clad with knees, shoulders, or belly exposed? They don't let you in. Period. Dress properly or don't come. I have seen the priest reject many a person. He is like the clothing bouncer. :-P

Am I sorry if this offends you or your mom... There is a HUGE difference between being properly clothed and dressing up. The pastor of my church welcomes the homoless man just as much as someone who wears jeans and a t, just as much as someone in a tux. It doesn't matter. However, if a 16 year old girl repeatedly shows up dressing showing excessive cleavage, short shorts... etc etc, he will talk to her. He won't throw her out of the church. Know why? If he does, who is going to help her? The next church who throws her out? This attitude is so very sad.

There is a difference. Also, if my jeans and t shirt are causing the person next to me to turn away from his religion, I will change my clothes, or seat. <--- is ridiculously obsurd. What that passage you para-phrased was saying... lets see how do I put this... If I am around an alcoholic at dinner and order wine, this would fit that passage. He has a problem with drinking, to a point he is drunk and sinning. I do not, so a casual glass of merlot is not a sin for me, however being in his presence can influence him to do the same. This promotes his problems and I am assisting him in sinning. The gist of it... It wasn't meant so, if a prude is offended by something you need to accomodate him. However, that is considerate of you to. Not everyone has to do it or they are sining.

[xsiled]

hippies/baby boomers killed the respect in our country.

the 30s, 40s, and 50s were modest times where respect was all that mattered and everyone presented themselves as well as possible.

I wish we would go back to the suit, tie world we once had. one without todays worthless youth "acting out" against whatever they heard was bad.