Ya know, I am about "over it".....

[robertsr1811]

I didn't buy Hybrid parts either, and was one of the ones that reported them to Eidos for trademark enfringment over their "contract killer" grips that were a blatant rip-off of a trademarked likeness. Got some very angry mail from people who couldn't spell very well over that one...

There are plenty of us who give a crap about kind of company we buy from. SP isn't the only company that gets all of my scorn and none of my cash.

[Ratt]

I am no fan boi, by any means. I do not follow internet 'fads', and I do not jump on bandwagons for the sake of doing so. I do, though, stand up for what I believe in. And if I believe in something strong enough, I will not change my mind or my ways.

With that being said...

This is how much of my money I have given to SP: $0.00
This is how much of my money I will ever give SP: $0.00

There is nothing anyone can say that will convince me that the Garners are not shady businessmen, driven by greed. Their actions have driven people out of business.

I am pretty passionate about few things, and paintball is one of them. And when it comes to paintball, there are two mantras that I have always lived by, and always will live by:

"Quality always shoots straight", and...


"FSP"

[Anjin3515]

When I got into paintball I had no idea of the saga of SP and AGD and all that.
But after reading about it, and doing as much research as I could about it, I came to my own conclusion that I don't like the way SP does business. From there I have, and continue to vote with my wallet. I simply don't buy their products.
Does this make a dent in them...no, not at all. Do I expect my own personal boycott of SP to do anything to them, nope. But it makes me feel better about the money I spend on paintball.

[magmonkey]

The whole point of my original post was not so much to try and stand up for SP. I am not trying to garner sympathy for them at all. The point is that personally I have had just about enough of this SP sux, because
a) my buddy says so
b) I read it on the intarwebs
c) cause (I heard) they made "insert name" go out of business
and many other variations on the theme
.how about D) I watched a bunch of people in this industry that I call friends get screwed over
or E) this whole thing ripped a dream away from my leaving myself and my ex bussiness partner twisting in the wind with no work coming in and a huge debt

So anyway, now that I have driven around the mountain.....we can all :cuss: all we want. There is a following of e-cool anti SP fanbois who love to jump on board. As I have said and many people smarter than myself have said, all the bashing in the world certainly hasn't changed anything. They are still a mogul and apparently in it for.... well in it to squeeze out every last drop they can.....

don't think that we are all doing it for "e cool points"
you can talk all you want about fanbois and band wagons, I do not make public statements hating on smartparts because it is the cool thing to do. I do it because I truley HATE them for what they have done. the gardner brothers are one step away from having cloven hooves and tails.

if one person who reads my posts and think twice about sending there cash to smartparts, then I am a happy guy.

[B-Pow]

I do not like smart parts.

I have had "polite discorse" (in quotes because it is still on the interwebs) on pbN with Sean (their most recent pbN public face). I don't like the choices they have made, the claims in their advertising, and the attitudes they perpuitate.

I can point to the things that disturb me that are in their adds right now. And that I believe they are continuing the spread of players that are killing the sport. Ads that contain text like "Own one before it PWNS you", "8 out of 9 world champions use shockers", "This is no longer a sport of honor (from their CGI tv ads that aired during the smart parts world championship last year on ESPN2)". They are continuing the belief that you can buy skill, and that the game isn't about having a good time it's about lighting up fools.

The thing that gets me the most unsetteld about the company is it's decision to not disclose exactally what it does. I've told Sean flat out, I would consider giving their products another chance if they were honest to their consumer base and told us what was going on. We do infact live in an age of information, and I don't even have the slightest clue (for sure) how the fees are accessed for the electro patent. I know it's their perogitive to hide that information, but I don't approve of cloak and dagger action and it's almost impossible to hide what you are doing these days....just how you are doing it. My request did not even get lip service, and that bothered me. I just want information and until I get it, I will continue to vote away from them with my money.

After all of that I still don't really like how their markers feel. But I do have an ion that I got second hand and I use as a loaner.

My reasons are my own, and the patent wars are only a small part of it. I am not a sheeple, I have looked, thought, and decided for myself why I do not like them and I can show why with solid proof, not just he said she said crap.

I also like to think I do not "look down" on SP users, I just don't want to go down that path myself.

[teufelhunden]

It isnt similar. At all. SP wasnt the biggest guy on the block using their size and capital to do anything of the sort. Rather, they used what many here on AO and in this industry consider to be shady practices for IP that doesnt rightfully(morally or ethically) belong to them. To date, when asked, Smart Parts will not answer if Tippmann or Kingman have signed a licensing agreement...wonder why? Youve already said you dont really care. But I wonder...as they seem to announce everywhere when any company does sign with them. If they havent, why hasnt SP gone after them? All good questions.

If IP litigation wasnt the most expensive form of litigation, those who otherwise couldnt fight would. Its usually a lack of funds, and not the lack of being right, that keep those from fighting IP wars.


If Starbucks did what Smart Parts did, I would not drink their coffee. I would choose to drink Peet's, or any other viable alternative. If there wasnt an alternative, Id choose another beverage option.

It is similar, because as you will remember, SP wasn't litigating anything when it was 1999. They waited a few years until they were large enough to afford a protracted IP battle. Who knows about Tippmann or Kingman, we don't.

IP litigation is the most expensive because there is the most to gain from a positive judgment, hence why those involved fight it from every conceivable angle to make it the most expensive.

I don't know why so many people assume that anti-SP folks don't care about this sort of thing in other industries. I'm a firm believer in voting with my wallet - therefore I avoid Starbucks, Wal-Mart and the like when possible. It's like some people think there's a problem with being an informed consumer...

Of course, it also helps that AGD makes better markers than SP, Starbucks' coffee pales in comparison to the local place down the street, and Wal-Mart sells cheap plastic crap. :headbang:

There is no problem, but unless you stick exclusively with mom-and-pop stores whose owners you know intimately, you will not be able to know with certainty about any skeletons in the closets. So if you're going to vet companies A, B, and C before using their products, why not D, E, and F?

i love it when people "roll thier eyes" at another bunch of people trying to get a company to do the right thing.

Facinating.

No matter how trivial, the lack of paintballers standing up against Smart Parts has allowed them to reign supreme in teh industry now-a-days. Yes its business. But its business practiced in an unethical way. For whatever reason the attitude of "meh...whatever, its just business" has lead to a downturn in the honorable for-fathers of our industry. I dont give a hoot if SP guns shoot player seeking missles that are made of gold and fairy-dust. I would trade 10 Smart Parts for one AGD, a hundred Gardners for one Tom Kaye.
Where is the innovation in teh industry? Well, its lying half conscience of the floor gasping for air because its being choked by the patent-paper work of a "just doing business" attitude.

To date SP has this much of my money:

$0.00

It's fascinating (get firefox) that you've missed the reason for the argument; namely, most people don't have any idea why they hate SP, but they just do because that's what others do.

I tend to think you don't have any background or education in business ethics as it's never as cut and dry as you think. While you may see it as unethical, is it unethical from the POV of someone working for SP, who was hired because the firm was growing? Etc.

As long as it's legal I could care less. If SP wants to take over the industy using these tactics than good for them. People act like SP is the only company who stole/borrowed ideas. Sorry but that is nothing new in paintball. It's a copy cat industry, if something sells you can bet there a few companies lining up their versions.

As I recall, this entire forum was fairly sad and nostalgic for the Autococker, which was a "borrowed" design from Palmer...



Will respond to the rest later, as time permits.

[Boy_Wonder]

No matter how trivial, the lack of paintballers standing up against Smart Parts has allowed them to reign supreme in teh industry now-a-days. Yes its business. But its business practiced in an unethical way. For whatever reason the attitude of "meh...whatever, its just business" has lead to a downturn in the honorable for-fathers of our industry. I dont give a hoot if SP guns shoot player seeking missles that are made of gold and fairy-dust. I would trade 10 Smart Parts for one AGD, a hundred Gardners for one Tom Kaye.

Love it.

[robnix]

I can even give you guys an example: Starbucks. Independent coffee shops hate Starbucks. A company called Coffee Equipment Company developed and built a machine called the Clover which makes a phenomenal cup of coffee [google it if you care how]. Independent coffee shops discovered the Clover and started making really good cups of coffee, and some of the press about it will have you believe there were lines out the door -- aka, it was great for business. This posed a threat to Starbucks. So, Starbucks bought the Coffee Equipment Company and no longer sells the Clover, and instead you will be seeing them at your neighborhood Starbucks soonish. Now, it's not a patent issue, but it's a similar type of thing: Starbucks used their size and available capital to take away a source of competition and in turn, is harming the little guys. Sound familiar? Do you still drink Starbucks [if you do/can/whatever]? Will you continue to with this knowledge?

It's not the same, and you're mad at the wrong company. Noone forced CEC to sell to Starbucks, that was their decision. And no, I don't drink Starbucks, they've been over roasting their coffee for years.

[93civiccpe]

As long as it's legal I could care less. If SP wants to take over the industy using these tactics than good for them. People act like SP is the only company who stole/borrowed ideas. Sorry but that is nothing new in paintball. It's a copy cat industry, if something sells you can bet there a few companies lining up their versions.

I guess mom was wrong then.. and two wrongs do make a right. Your logic is terrible.. it's the same mentality that has allowed the tourney scene to view wiping as a "skill" as long as you don't get caught. Because if one team is cheating and getting away with it we might as well all cheat.. right?? right?? It's that mentality that is killing the sport I have loved for so long.. and I will continue to speak out against it in hope that one day things might return to the better days of old.

[steve_81]

Just to make things clear in the midst of all this. We WERE sent a letter by SP "inviting" us to license their technology. This is the precursor to the C&D but legally marks the date you were notified in writing of infringement. If it goes to court, and you loose, you have to pay royalties from that date forward.

No matter what your position is, the paintball community votes with their dollars. Since SP is one of the most successful pb compainies, you must like what they have to say and offer. There is some kind of disconect between what is heard on the net and the success of SP. If I understood that I could make millions in this business.

What is indisputable is that there are fewer products to choose from today than 5 years ago. If your good with that, which many seem to think is ok, then SP bashing would sound pointless. If you had a dream and a goal, which we had in the early nineties, then its important to support the people who will bring those dreams and goals to reality. The good people made paintball happen for all of YOU, now you take it for granted.

I am old school, perhaps out of touch, dead and dying but I remember the dream and the people that sacrificed to make it come true. I am just glad I was part of it back when it meant something because there are no Bud Orr's, Debbie Dion's, Jim Lively's or Ross Alexander's to hang out with today.

AGD

I agree completely. I entered into this sport in 1996 and boy has it changed. I really miss the way it used to be.

To me the sport was ruined when the SP Ion came onto the market. Which brought the high ROF to the masses. Closing the gap that separated the people whom could afford high end markers and those who could not. That to me is when Paintball started taking a nose dive. People can argue that when the Ion came out it helped make the sport grow, which is true but it also brought a plague of younger cocky players that really have no respect for the sport along with it. Leaving the older generation of paintballers in the dust.

I remember playing just to play and have fun. Now if you go to a field and don't have a $700+ marker (or a marker that the pros use) or even if you aren't wearing a set of matching Jersey & pants your a noob.

Paintball started in the woods and needs to stay in the woods.

[warbeak2099]

Anyways, people crying about other people choosing not to support SP is even more annoying than uninformed people who bash SP.

[mostpeople]

Anyways, people crying about other people choosing not to support SP is even more annoying than uninformed people who bash SP.

For us informed people bashing SP we have no problem with the uninformed people bashing SP, it just helps our cause. For anyone who doesn't give a crap about what SP did, that means you are complacent with it, which is in my book just as bad as being part of it. For people who are educated on the issue and still own and shoot SP guns on the field, well I find that I have little respect for most of those people. For people are uneducated about it, I find that educating them really opens their eyes and they don't want to support them anymore. Talk to any paintball shop owner about how SP screws them over, its awesome because its pretty much universal. My local pro-shop hates SP, but its a necessary evil for him.. so you being complacent with their gouging, is actually hurting his profit indirectly, do you see that? Ideally we could get a boycott on SP - but alas it would NEVER happen.

And for the record, I don't really give a crap about what anyone thinks of me - and I certainly don't knock SP for 'e-cool' points as you call it. I am cool enough as it is, don't need to bash SP to be cooler.


Although it does help :rofl:

[punkncat]

Anyways, people crying about other people choosing not to support SP is even more annoying than uninformed people who bash SP.

Huh?

I certainly hope you do not think that applies to me.....not sure what it applies to. I am not saying that ANYONE should support SP OR any of their partners.

[Old School 626]

RE: SP, I vote with my $$.

Freedom of speech must endure to include all ideology, not just the ideology you are aligned with in order for it to be absolutely *free* speech.

[Old School 626]

I agree completely. I entered into this sport in 1996 and boy has it changed. I really miss the way it used to be.

To me the sport was ruined when the SP Ion came onto the market. Which brought the high ROF to the masses. Closing the gap that separated the people whom could afford high end markers and those who could not. That to me is when Paintball started taking a nose dive. People can argue that when the Ion came out it helped make the sport grow, which is true but it also brought a plague of younger cocky players that really have no respect for the sport along with it. Leaving the older generation of paintballers in the dust.

I remember playing just to play and have fun. Now if you go to a field and don't have a $700+ marker (or a marker that the pros use) or even if you aren't wearing a set of matching Jersey & pants your a noob.

Paintball started in the woods and needs to stay in the woods.

Steve_81,

I started playing in the late 80's and quit for a number of years for very similar reasons to yours. So similar in fact that you can take your statement and erase the ION and put in the Automag and Autococker. Paintball changed into a trigger tugging competition and it will change again, of that you can be certain.