If AGD Wanted To Go Electronic ?

[cockerpunk]

Lotus Elise would be my choice. And they can be had for a decent price.... alas I still don't own one.

id steer clear of the them. number 1, they arn't actually very good cars, you know, to use as a car. defrost doesn't work when its raining, AC, lol etc etc. number 2, they arn't cheap, the cheap ones are all salvage titles for body damage. number 3, the reason they are all salvage titles for body damage, is you bump the front or rear fiberglass clam-shell into something (like a curb), its wrecked, and the cost to get one and replace it, is more than the value of the car. and number 4, the 2zz-ge engine, isn't that great, and frankly isn't a great track motor. k series > 2zz-ge

that being said i own the even worse version of elise ... though mine is significantly faster than any elise ive seen at the track. if i was doing it all over again i'd buy an s2000, z06, or 997C2S. or if i wanted to put a bunch of work into a car, ecotec swapped miata.

[Ninjeff]

The best way for AGD to break the market is 2 fold:
1- Design a new entry level field marker that is easy to clean, and reliable. A simple elegant design to replace the thousands of Tippmann 98s the world over. My field would snap up 150 in a heart beat.

2- Use that money to make a 100% redesigned high end marker. No holding on to the past. Get the Tom K. spirit back with clever innovations, brilliant quality, and elegant design. Make it the kind of thing that isnt a flashy space gun, but such high quality people know its awesome.
Dont chase Ferrari, or Lambo, chase Porsche.

[Nobody]

The best way for AGD to break the market is 2 fold:
1- Design a new entry level field marker that is easy to clean, and reliable. A simple elegant design to replace the thousands of Tippmann 98s the world over. My field would snap up 150 in a heart beat.

You will never replace Tippmann or BT for field rentals. They are too far entrenched in the rental market for anyone to seriously contend for that place. But a mag is extrememly easy to clean. While still airred up, you can take a classic valve and dunk it in water. Being aired up means no water gets to the internals, and 1 screw to take out the valve can not be any simpler.

2- Use that money to make a 100% redesigned high end marker. No holding on to the past. Get the Tom K. spirit back with clever innovations, brilliant quality, and elegant design. Make it the kind of thing that isnt a flashy space gun, but such high quality people know its awesome.
Dont chase Ferrari, or Lambo, chase Porsche.

There is no money in high end guns. With high end guns you need a team, an place to play and advertising for that. Since teams change guns, players and sponsors like their socks and what peague is even still around, why chase that dragon?

The mag if anything was ahead of the curve in design. Single tube design, 2 screws holding it together. The problem was not with the design but lack of preceived "sexxy-ness". It just worked without any glitz or crazy milling or anno.

[BigEvil]

I played with my Ego mag this Sunday and am totally in love with it. Fast and smooth... slightly better than the Logic electro pneumatic frames IMO.. Efficiency wasn't great but I shot every ball I was carrying (200 + 6 pods) and had air leftover every time.

If I was going to make another electro frame, that would be the way I would go.

[blackdeath1k]

id steer clear of the them. number 1, they arn't actually very good cars, you know, to use as a car. defrost doesn't work when its raining, AC, lol etc etc. number 2, they arn't cheap, the cheap ones are all salvage titles for body damage. number 3, the reason they are all salvage titles for body damage, is you bump the front or rear fiberglass clam-shell into something (like a curb), its wrecked, and the cost to get one and replace it, is more than the value of the car. and number 4, the 2zz-ge engine, isn't that great, and frankly isn't a great track motor. k series > 2zz-ge

that being said i own the even worse version of elise ... though mine is significantly faster than any elise ive seen at the track. if i was doing it all over again i'd buy an s2000, z06, or 997C2S. or if i wanted to put a bunch of work into a car, ecotec swapped miata.

Never said it was a useful car. Basically a go-cart that is street legal. Still my favorate looking car other than the newest vette body style. But there are fare more vettes on the road than lotuses.

[Ninjeff]

Disagree. I run a field, and yes we (like pretty much everyone else) shoot 98s. But they are everywhere because there is no competition. None. Its either a tippmann, or tippmann derivitive. The rest (pirahnas, spyders etc) are a quality nightmare so all you can really do is get the 98s or the ft 12s.
An alternative by AGD would be amazing.

I know Mags are easy to clean because I've been using them for 20 years. If i could have a rental fleet of mags around the $100 price point i would.
Well, i'd supplement the 98s at first....


Anyway, i did more thinking and i wonder what a TK designed pump would look like given current manufacturing tech.

[bowcycle]

If i could have a rental fleet of mags around the $100 price point i would.
Well, i'd supplement the 98s at first....

Anyway, i did more thinking and i wonder what a TK designed pump would look like given current manufacturing tech.

I'm pretty sure you can get plenty of classics for around that $100 price. A big issue would be training people to shoot them.
Part of the reason the 98's are so popular is that they are about as close to "idiot proof" as you can get.

I don't know that even TK could do anything to a pump that hasn't already been done. The new ICD pumps are pretty sweet and you have the phantoms that are never going away. And Azodin is killing it in the low-end pump market.

[dboggs79]

As much as I hate to point you in this direction, have you considered using enmeys for field markers?

[Evil1]

AGD actually had a rental model of mags back in the 90's.....

[Beemer]

Please take the car talk to friendly corner, its off topic. Thank you.

[Evil1]

Its a tough situation...you produce too much product relative to the market and you sit on inventory you can't sell. You produce too little product you probably won't generate any interest to grow demand.

Doing what I can to spread the word.

Didn't somebody on here build a mag like gun with an mq valve and an eblade a while back? Found a thread, but no pics or videos.

[Sandman]

Lots of good suggestions and discussion.

There will be no $100 to $150 new Automag. It could not be an Automag. There are lots of classics out there used for that.
For $100 you get a Gryphon and for $60 you get a Spyder Victor. They don't even compare on the same planet as a Mag.
Try asking Planet Eclipse or Dye to make a $100 gun.
Dye did make a $250 gun called the Rize. Have you seen it? It's nice for a cheap Ion style gun. But never gonna hold up like a Mag.
Planet Eclipse is soon to release their cheap gun version the Etha 2.0. It's releasing at $399 instead of the old price of $350.00. Still not a Mag.

Asking for the quality of a mag in $100 gun is kind of silly. You just can't have the quality of a Mag in a $100 gun. It's just not possible.

Hopefully Luke will be selling his new guns soon with electronics in them, and we'll get a good look at how it can be done.
I can't wait to see how it turns out.

In the mean time all the idea's are great! Every bit of brain storming helps to develop that one idea that will make it happen.
Keep up the good work!

[going_home]

Good post.

Encouraging for magdom to see some new innovation happening.

You guys see on the AGD site that you can now buy the latest loaders ?

And they now will once again work on Emags ?

Its getting interesting to say the least.

Maybe we need more than one mag enthusiast event a year ?

[Ninjeff]

As much as I hate to point you in this direction, have you considered using enmeys for field markers?

Yes, we have.

Listen, i feel like this kinda got bent out of shape, lol.

98s are fine but a pain in the ass to clean. The spyders and victors and bt's and pirahnas and all are cheap, but also....cheap. Easier to clean, but woefully ill designed to stand the rigors of a rental fleet beyond a year or two.

What i was suggesting was a side of the market that has experienced exactly zero innovation (enmy's and FT-12s aside) in the last...what...decade?
Mags are quality, but AGD is also known for innovation.
That's the only reason i brought it up.
I really feel like the entire damn industry has basically left fields out to dry when it comes to anything remotely resembling a good rental. ESPECIALLY if your field is like mine, and you clean them every day after renting. The Tippmann FT-12 was a really good effort, but due to a shoddy design in the rear hinge we had to stop using them (we've had 4 blow out -literally blow out the back hinge- while customers were using them.)
I was simply stating a way i thought AGD could innovate in a section of the industry largely left behind.

ANYWAY We have looked at the Enmy's and ordered one to test out. They work fine for a REC player, but i'm curious to see how they handle a RENTAL player day in and day out. Thanks for the suggestion dboggs!

[Doc Nickel]

1- Design a new entry level field marker that is easy to clean, and reliable. A simple elegant design to replace the thousands of Tippmann 98s the world over.

-Speaking as a person currently being paid to design markers and marker parts, I'd like to point out how absurd this statement is.

R&D- that is, research and development- is hugely expensive. If you're lucky, and you're a bright guy with lots of ideas, it's "only" expensive in time. If you're not all that bright- and I'm not saying "stupid", I'm saying "not a brilliant inventor"- then it's financially expensive, because then you have to HIRE a brilliant inventor or two.

And either way, it's also financially expensive to produce a new design. These days it's matter of CAD programming a virtual design, manufacturing a prototype to that design, testing it, altering the CAD, making another prototype, testing that, and so on. Not even Tom got it right on the first try.

And that assumes you already have a design- the marker you're asking for doesn't yet exist, which means you have to invent it. And THAT is only the first of many hurdles, and arguably the largest.

Design a marker that isn't a blow-forward, blowback, stacked-valve, spooler or autococker, isn't Nelson-based, Sheridan based or Matrix based, doesn't infringe on any current patent, isn't a clone of an existing marker (even oddballs like the EPIC, Alien or Nova) and yet is cheap, easy to service, very reliable and can be manufactured for less than $60 each. (Which is how much they'd have to cost to have a street value of $100, which is roughly what you can get a Tippmann for.)

That's a REALLY tall order, and would literally cost a company millions to even try. For example, forgetting R&D costs, to get a marker anywhere close to that cheap per unit, your first run would have to be at least 100,000 units, preferably twice that. If you could, somehow, get it down to $60 a unit, that's still six to twelve million in production costs- to say nothing of advertising, setting up dealer networks, etc.

2- Use that money to make a 100% redesigned high end marker. No holding on to the past. Get the Tom K. spirit back with clever innovations, brilliant quality, and elegant design. Make it the kind of thing that isnt a flashy space gun, but such high quality people know its awesome.

-Again, it's just that easy. :)

Think of it this way: Invent us a movie. I mean, right here and now, come up with a reasonably detailed premise for a movie. A unique and interesting new movie, that isn't a sequel, isn't a superhero movie, doesn't use an existing popular, historical or stock character, isn't a war movie, an action movie, a chase movie, a love story, a spy thriller, isn't based off an existing book, isn't "inspired by a true story", isn't based in an existing "universe", doesn't contain any ninjas, knights, zombies, monsters, cowboys, robots, time-travellers, martial-arts masters, loners, stoners or hookers with a heart of gold, hasn't already been done and would have enough mass-market appeal to at least double its production costs at the box office.

That's pretty much what you're asking. You're the boss saying "make me something new and amazing, make it perfect the first time out the gate, and have the finished version on my desk first thing in the morning.". :)

Doc.