If AGD Wanted To Go Electronic ?

[Ninjeff]

So lets have a discussion where we ponder what AGD could do to break back in to the industry and **** on any suggestion that isn't "just make Automags great again"

And i wasn't what i was asking.
NO where did i say this:
"make me something new and amazing, make it perfect the first time out the gate, and have the finished version on my desk first thing in the morning."

I don't know where you came up with this concept that I was asking for some revolutionary new paintball gun tech.

[going_home]

I think fields would pay $250-$300 for a ULE LVL10 classic rental mag.

They'd just buy 10 at a time instead of 25.

Nothing wrong with discussion at all.

Eventually an idea thrown up against the wall will stick.

[Doc Nickel]

So lets have a discussion where we ponder what AGD could do to break back in to the industry and **** on any suggestion that isn't "just make Automags great again"

-You misunderstand. Your statement that I originally quoted basically said "well, just invent an all-new gun!" which you followed up with "well, just invent an all new high end gun!"

My reply, as rambling as it was, was simply that it's not that easy. Inventing something new is very, very hard, as a matter of fact.

as Sandman notes, a $100 entry-level marker wouldn't be an Automag. An Automag simply cannot be made for $100, even if they had the cheapest Chinese factory crapping out the parts and converted most of the design to plastic. That means a "$100 AGD gun"- which is what you're asking for when you call for a Tippmann replacement- would have to be something new, something not an Automag.

So, how do we make it? Is it a spooler, like an Ion or a Vibe? A blowback like a Spyder or a Tippmann? A rammer like an Etek or Ego?

AGD is, at the moment, just two guys who, from what it sounds like, are running the company in their spare time. Who is going to design this gun, who is going to pay to have the prototypes made, and who will finance the first production run?

I'm not "****"-ing on anything. I'm pointing out the reality of the situation.

I don't know where you came up with this concept that I was asking for some revolutionary new paintball gun tech.

-I got that right here: "1- Design a new entry level field marker that is easy to clean, and reliable. A simple elegant design to replace the thousands of Tippmann 98s the world over."

To "replace" Tippmanns, the marker would have to wholesale for less than $100- in some cases, probably less than $80. The only way to do that is to have a very simple, dirt-cheap design, which means no built-in air pressure regulators, no stainless steel, and a LOT of die-cast potmetal and injection-molded plastic.

"Easy to clean" means not a spooler, and 'reliable' means not a Spyder style blowback.

So what do you suggest we build? We can't just copy somebody else's existing gun, because none of them are inexpensive, reliable or easy to clean. Tippmann's been around for over 30 years, and has been the dominant rental marker for at least 20 of those. Nobody's come along with a Tippmann-beater yet. Not Smart Parts, not DYE, not Bob Long, not Indian Creek, not even Kingman or Ariakon.

Which means your proposed gun needs an all-new design with revolutionary new tech.

Doc.

[Ninjeff]

If i knew what to build I'd be building them! I don't design paintball guns, i run a paintball field.
Listen, the discussion at hand was different ways for AGD to break back in to the sport. Instead of offering the same suggestions i suggested a an area of the industry no one is paying attention to. There are what twenty mid to high end guns? and....3 MAYBE 4 entry level guns, and really only 2 rental fleet style guns.

Tippmann was SO close with the FT-12. SO CLOSE. But the design had/has a fatal flaw in it. The pot metal simply blows out in the back hinge. Like explodes while being shot by a customer. Doesn't happen to all of them, but enough that we stopped using them.

@Sandman hey, i get it, if you don't want to have AGD focus down market that's fine! I've been an AGD fan and loyalist for 20 years. Been shooting them in every tournament i've played except one. Still use them, still buy them. So as a PLAYER I'm just excited for anything new by AGD.

Now, as a business manager I was simply tossing out an idea that no one had tossed out yet. Its an area i feel is lacking in the industry. I know AGD can do rentals. Fox Creek upstate has had them for years. That being said i wouldn't expect an "Automag", i was just thinking something new is all. No one is paying attention to that side of the industry.
But, i understand that its not something you'd like AGD to do or focus on. That's cool too.

[Doc Nickel]

If i knew what to build I'd be building them!

-That was kind of exactly my point. Basically a good portion of this thread has been little more than telling AGD to run out and invent a brand-new super-popular marker. :)

Listen, the discussion at hand was different ways for AGD to break back in to the sport.

-I realize that. But telling them to invent, develop and produce an all-new gun isn't necessarily a viable answer. It's like saying the way to win a paintball game is to shoot the other guy before he shoots you. :)

Yes, that's exactly true- but it's the HOW part where it starts getting tricky. That was my point.

Instead of offering the same suggestions i suggested a an area of the industry no one is paying attention to.

-What, the newbie and rental markets? The reason "nobody" (well, besides Tippmann, BT, Kingman, GOG, Azodin and JT, etc.) pays any attention to that market is basically because it's literally almost impossible to compete with Tippmann and Kingman. Both have well-established distribution lines, and can manufacture on economies of scale that virtually no start-up can match.

And that's the other unspoken part of the problem: We don't have the market anymore- at least, not what we used to. Prior to the 2007 recession, paintball as a sport and industry was going through double-digit growth. That is, increasing by 10% or more every year. While that was great news for the manufacturers, and even good news for start-ups who could find a ready market for virtually any gun they wanted to build, it simply couldn't last. The economists call that a "bubble".

Even today, nearly ten years after that bubble popped, we, as a sport and industry, are still not back up to anything close to the sales or participation numbers we saw back then. And the players we do have don't have as much disposable cash as they used to.

That's a very tough market even for established names like DYE and Tippmann, both of which have brought out models that flopped hard, and cost them millions.

To bring a new gun to the market today would cost at least $100K, probably closer to a quarter-million. I know of a couple start-ups that burned through that kind of money, produced good product, and still failed.

I'm not saying there's "no hope" for AGD. On the contrary, they still have some good IP and designs, and a salable product. But the road back to where they stood back in 2002 or 2004 or so, is going to be long, hard and expensive.

Doc.

[Ninjeff]

I know, I've seen the downturn.
Pre-2007ish we were getting 3k people a year with almost no problem. There were days we ran out of rental equipment entirely and had to start handing out personal equipment. (nothing like seeing the look on a 13 year old's face when he shoot an e-mag for the first time)

Now a days we struggle to get 2k people a year. That's nothing for big metro fields like CPX in Chicago and such, but we are the "standard size" paintball field. Its been really tough and since industry consolidation (really we're down to what...2 major parent companies now?) the lack of innovation has been hurting the sport from the industry side as well as the sport not marketing well to the new player side.
Saw a brief up-tick in interest with the popularity of mil-sim but that didn't sustain very long.

I'm sure its even harder for AGD since they've been a non-entity to the regular player for more than a decade. Even though in my mind they're still the best, there is a whole generation of new players who've never seen an Automag in the wild.
Still without a new gun of SOME type (high end, middle of the road, mil-sim, rental, pump, electro, pnuematic...whatever) i don't see any way AGD gets any more attention in the industry. OTHER than some serious PR work and expositions with current AGD stuff.
Right now AGD excitement is its own echo chamber.

Still, some cool 1 of ___ guns with some interesting features would make a bit of a splash i suppose. Get some of the great builders together to come up with some AGD Authorized Automags. Like an all Carbon Fiber Super Light Weight Mag and make only 100 of them.
Get AGD to come up with a nice electro frame (something like the DYE frame in sexiness) and make some cool limited edition mags. That would generate some excitement.

[Nobody]

Nice to see Doc in here as these types of questions were always bantered about on the Tinker's Guild of old.

Now, it's easy to go spend other people's money & time, that is the major issue that Doc specifically is bringing up. In an industry that now is very hit or miss, where you have to hit a home run the first time out. With R&D where it is in cost, trying to predict what and where the industry is at or going to is near impossible, you as a business really need to hedge bets to at least break even so you don't loose your shirt, so you can keep the lights on for the next project.

Paintball also has a weird path of not doing the logical thing. Even a rental mag fleet with L10 kits (which is an expensive proposition in itself) would be a superior gun over a rental Tippmann, but because the Tippmann is a well established product, where parts are cheap and plentiful, anyone can fix them and maintenance is super simple. Mags though simple and easy are a way different maintenance path. Though simple for those that are used to them, it is a change.

Now, even with a new gun, where are people going to see it? That in itself is the rub. You can have the best product in the world but if you don't have a means to show them, get them out into the world, then it is useless. Its also a double edged sword. If you have people selling the product, you need to have production up to be able to supply the houses with products on hand and to be able to ship to them or drop ship products for them. Again, money is the overbearing factor here. Unless you have someone who is established and can get product made, where its not going to happen.

Just as you a mid sized field but are having trouble getting people to you, that is the same in the gun manufacturing and part stores. Before some parts where just there and could and did need improvements over stock. Now, where you have guns that don't need barrels, don't need even ASAs; the nouveaux modularity of the mag when it was big, has been passed by. Players now don't or can't put a gun together, and to a point they don't need to anymore, but there isn't a need to anymore, since all other manufacturer does it for them. Innovation isn't going to do that. Its excitement of the product or field that brings the people out. Its letting the world know you are there, that brings them back.

We all here want and wish that AGD was talked about like PE, like Empire; but till a few things fall in, of which i can not say, just being alive for as long as AGD has been is testament to the foundations that TK built upon.having a product that for years will work.

[Sandman]

Still, some cool 1 of ___ guns with some interesting features would make a bit of a splash i suppose. Get some of the great builders together to come up with some AGD Authorized Automags. Like an all Carbon Fiber Super Light Weight Mag and make only 100 of them.
Get AGD to come up with a nice electro frame (something like the DYE frame in sexiness) and make some cool limited edition mags. That would generate some excitement.

I think we(AGD) and the community are doing exactly this already...except the 100 guns parts... change that to ten...
Xmagterror has been selling CF bodies....I didn't get in on that run, but next time for sure. He's also selling Uni-bodies.
Luke is making a totally custom gun with an electronic trigger. Keith is making custom frames...Doc makes barrel inserts....
I just had nummech redesign the Boss for their feedneck just for AGD guns. Inceptions just made a feedneck.
AGD made some custom guns, SandFX and OG........ There are several others making cool custom pieces for mags.

All in all we have nice selection of custom products and parts made for mags. Probably more than DYE and PE in reality. What custom part can you buy for a CS1? or an M2?

Albeit very small, the mag community is ok. It needs some TLC to help it grow a bit more. I have no expectation of ever growing back to any truly significant numbers, but I would like to grow to the point where we feel we can continue to run valves and build guns without wondering if we could ever sell them. The balance of that reality is ever too close.

I appreciate the passion shown here in this thread. Makes it worth it to spend the time I do in keeping mags alive.

[Ninjeff]

AGD could always leverage the brilliance of the x-valve/level 10 combo that it absolutely brilliant.
Advertise it like the "core" that allows you to build anything kind of gun you might want. Show off everything from a tac/milsim mag to a carbon mag to the crazy bodies, electros, pnuemags, pump mags all with this one brilliant common denominator. No batteries needed either! No crazy boards to break or anything.
Redo that TK tongue-in-breach bit from years back showing that its super easy on paint. You can build anything with it!

Additionally, i'd like to see AGD "get out" more. Get to Legends at CPX right down the road, hit up the big games and big events in the state. Hell, come on down to Bloomington IL for our Spring Pump Event every spring. Sure, AGD doesn't field a pump officially, but an entire weekend of pump only play attracts one to two hundred "old schoolers" and they're ALWAYS receptive to new tech from old companies. We had the new ICD pump at this years SPE and the table was PACKED with people looking at it.
AGD needs to get out there more, remind people they're still around and kicking. Shake some hands, meet the people and show off what AGD already has to offer and maybe get some feedback about what the players are looking for.

Wouldn't take much $$ to do. We have TONS of hood stuff around here in Illinois and Chicago. Lots of good fields. Start local, grow from there.

[Ninjeff]

This is precisely what i was saying (or meaning to say, if i wasnt clear).

We (the small AGD community) know about all this amazing stuff, but players at large don't. And you're right there is ZERO gun customization now-a-days and a lot of folks are saddened by that. I think getting AGD back out there on scene and showing off the amazing stuff all the builders make is a cool and cost effective way to grow our little community.
Not only is the quality offered second to none, but just TRY and find another gun you can make 100% your own now a days!

[blackdeath1k]

This is precisely what i was saying (or meaning to say, if i wasnt clear).

We (the small AGD community) know about all this amazing stuff, but players at large don't. And you're right there is ZERO gun customization now-a-days and a lot of folks are saddened by that. I think getting AGD back out there on scene and showing off the amazing stuff all the builders make is a cool and cost effective way to grow our little community.
Not only is the quality offered second to none, but just TRY and find another gun you can make 100% your own now a days!

Really that is all just marketing plain and simple. Don't get me wrong. I'm no marketer. But as you point out. Between Chicago area and NW IN there are a lot of fancy big fields with some BIG games that could be capitalized on. Sell the marker on its customizability.

[Sandman]

Didn't God rest on the 7th day?....and I'm pretty sure he never created an 8th....

"Getting out" is much tougher and costly than you think. I'd love to get out and certainly do want to hit some events in 2017.
I won't make promises because it's just too uncertain, but the attempt and thought will be there.

Gotta hook up with some of those other Uber companies, buy them a beer, and see if they will give me a corner to sit in.

[Doc Nickel]

Still, some cool 1 of ___ guns with some interesting features would make a bit of a splash i suppose. [snip]Get AGD to come up with a nice electro frame (something like the DYE frame in sexiness) and make some cool limited edition mags. That would generate some excitement.

-They did. And unfortunately, that told us more than we really wanted to know about the state of AGD today.

Sandman released six one-off custom models almost two months ago. Had he done that in 2006, or even 2004, all six would have sold in literally minutes. In reality, today, it took two months to sell just four of them.

Worse, the reaction from the PBNation crowd was, at best, "meh". Most complained that they were "old technology", that they were "overpriced" (despite the fact that many DYE and PE products cost more than the 'Mags did) and of course the old bits about it being too heavy, or has a poor trigger feel, or it's just "ew, a mechanical trigger?!?"

Whether you feel those sentiments are right or wrong, they're still there, and still have a significant effect on sales and marketing.

One of those startups I mentioned did something similar: They burned through a rumored $150K in angel-investor money, produced the first run of guns and had decent sales for a while- until the guns started breaking down, often right out of the box. I have no idea where the money went- I only hear what they post online- but they actually had to launch a Kickstarter to build some money back up in order to facilitate repairs.

The Kickstarter failed miserably, barely earning something like 10% of the target amount.

If it were me, that right there would have been a Big Red Flag, a "we need to sit down and seriously rethink this entire proposition" type moment.

Now, even with a new gun, where are people going to see it? That in itself is the rub. You can have the best product in the world but if you don't have a means to show them, get them out into the world, then it is useless.

-That's a huge hurdle right there. We no longer have any magazines, of course TV and newspapers are either not targeted enough or too expensive or both, which leaves only the internet and actually going to events. Those are pretty much our only two sources of advertising.

The internet is relatively cheap, but also getting more and more diluted. PBN is still something of a mover and shaker, but even their traffic is down from where it used to be. You can buy a banner ad, but a significant percentage of people run ad-blockers. Lots of people are bailing PBN in favor of specialized Facebook pages- and advertising on those pages is surprisingly expensive. Worse, "word of mouth"- or what we call "viral" today- doesn't work anywhere near as well as it used to. It's now very rare for somebody to post a "hey, did you see this?" kind of thing on another board, unless it's outrageously funny, or just plain outrageous.

Speaking personally, I'm a rather wide-ranging consumer of online forums- at least, I am when I have the time :) -but some of the latest gear? Like the new Spire loader and GTek? I have yet to see those even mentioned anywhere but on PBN.

To make advertising on the 'net work, you basically have to have a full-time ad guy, buying and maintaining banner ads, ad buys (like the PBN front page thing) and keeping up on your Facebook and email contacts.

The other option, travelling to events, is hugely expensive. Air travel, hotel rooms for several nights, shipping product, or driving to an event. If it's a big tourney, there's booth fees and entry/vendor fees on top of that. For something like the World Cup, I've heard of small vendors- not even guys like SP or DYE- spending $5K to have a booth there. (Travel, car rental, hotel, various transport costs, booth fees, etc.)

And you're right there is ZERO gun customization now-a-days and a lot of folks are saddened by that.

-It's not quite zero, but yeah, compared to what it used to be, it might as well be.

Doc.

[Evil1]

Sorry if this was covered already, but didn't get a chance to read all replies. Anybody that's in this thread that's played for at least a decade should know that 99% of new designs of paintball guns fail miserably. Ice epics, nova 700, cyber 9000, evil omen, satco, at-85, etc. All a flash in the pan. But I remember the first time I shot an angel in 97, the thing was a blender and I thought it would never amount to nothing. Innovation is good, but agd is not in the position to be innovative much past existing designs in the market as it stands.

[Ninjeff]

I admit i did not realize how long it took for AGD to sell those new guns. It sped around my facebook page like lightning, and for the first time i had guys on my field team asking me about Mags and the team Captain even built one.
However, I suppose I'm just as far in the AGD echo chamber as anyone else.
I know it spurred me to build another Mag. Got me looking again because i haven't actually OWNED a paintball gun in years (run a paintball field they said, play paintball all the time they said lol)

I suppose my suggestions aren't feasible. Too bad.
But, no one ever said i wasn't a helpless optimist!

Sandman i will personally drive the two hours to Chicago pick you and any AGD stuff up in my truck, drive you down here and put you up for a night in a hotel (even feed you!) to get AGD back out on the scene! LMAO!

Its definitely odd running a field, on one hand I'm far more "in tune" with the sport than a lot of players, but oddly really out of tune with some other stuff. I really thought that AGD news was a much bigger deal than it was, and i tend to avoid PBN unless advertising an event. I mostly roll around MCB and just started coming back here because i really want to build a new gun. Now this discussion has me kicking around some ideas in my head and that's fun at any rate.