If AGD Wanted To Go Electronic ?

[captian pinky]

Yes. But none of these new innovative designs really took off with the originators. With agd being as small as it already is, a "failure" could spell it's end. I know all about the markers I stated and what they may have turned into. I have never seen a working nova 700 or an ice epic. The two evil omens I saw in person were having issues. All I was saying is that alot of paintball companies went under because of "innovation"....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nJ2GkfvV2I

only one i had on youtube.

[Evil1]

All I was saying is that a company like agd with two guys running it in their spare time is in no position to come up with a totally new design at this point. Agd already has proven themselves.

[Sandman]

Did someone mention triggers?

triggers_2.jpg

Again, I appreciate all the passion. I hope no one gets frustrated or put off by the conversation. Doc, Jeff, you guys are bringing up great points.

Keep in mind AGD was a one man operation as of February.

Since March in stepping in to help Dave I have:

Entirely rebuilt the website.
re-aquired the domain airgundesigns.com
Created a new Facebook page which is closing in on 2k likes.
Created 2 small lines of customs guns SandFX and OG.
Had Luke make custom RT style rails.
Added products like Nummech, Inceptions, Empire and Luke's.
Factory serviced, repaired and returned numerous mags.
Fulfilled hundreds of orders domestically.
Supplied many customers overseas.
Supplied some domestic dealers...(this will evolve)
Talked to, assisted and emailed dozens of customers for support.
Created new AGD product (like pictured, only triggers, but still...)
Working on a new Intelliframe.
Many discussions on possible electronics options for the mag.
Working to establish new anodizers for larger affordable color selection once again
(previous anodizers have dropped us because we are too small)
The list goes on........

So in a marketing sense establishing a new website and building a facebook presence are huge moves.
Getting color back into AGD's dust black inventory is huge too, at least IMO.
Establishing relationships with community suppliers.
Maintaining the flow of parts and working to establish some new items.

All in all since March, I think AGD has made great progress.
Two hands one heart, can only do so much.

Just keep shooting mags and we'll do just fine.

[Ninjeff]

That is some mighty progress! Well done! That probably doesn't get said enough.


Speaking of anno, what happened to all the small anno guys that used to do custom anno all the time? I haven't looked in years so i suppose i just naturally assumed there were small batch guys still doing good work in the garages.
Question not related directly to AGD stuff, i'm just curious.

[Sandman]

There are not that many "small" ano guys left anymore. When I got back involved with AGD, It just so happened that Mario Calva from FX anodizing, back in the day, was getting restarted himself. We chatted and he agreed to help me get some guns going like the SandFX and OG series. The issue is, it's really expensive compared to bulk ano work. Mario can't provide me with a "stock" color ano work. He just doesn't work that way. He is an artist working on custom paint jobs charging a decent buck. The work he's already done for us and the ability to keep the cost of a hand polished acid wash color like on Blinky, Scorch and Envy, to a reasonable cost has been awesome.
I really do not know who else is out there doing custom ano work.

Commercial work is difficult. No one wants to run 100 parts or less. At least not in Chicago. That's why I'm reaching outside of Chicago to get some work done.
Hopefully I will be able to get some stock color going again that does not cost us custom ano prices.

That's about all I know on ano.

[Doc Nickel]

All in all since March, I think AGD has made great progress.

-And that's exactly what you need to be doing.

Ninjeff seems to think that money, time and ideas can be had for the asking, and anyone saying "we don't have the money for that" or "I don't have the time for that" just isn't trying hard enough or something. But the reality of the situation is that you guys have to make small steps, and do what improvements you can with what limited resources you have.

Small parts and accessories to start with is the best way to get back on your feet.

And I know you guys are AGD, but don't be afraid to offer parts for other markers too. :)

Doc.

[Doc Nickel]

Speaking of anno, what happened to all the small anno guys that used to do custom anno all the time? I haven't looked in years so i suppose i just naturally assumed there were small batch guys still doing good work in the garages.

-There are, but as is the nature of all small-garage businesses, things are constantly changing.

And with anodizing, there the additional hazmat issues to worry about. Anodizing deals with chemical and electrolyte baths, including sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide, which are toxic and can't always be just poured down the drain. (Well, the sodium hydroxide can- that's drain cleaner. :) But if it's full of aluminum smut, you're not supposed to.)

Depending on where you are in the country, and your local regulations, there's ventilation issues, PPE (personal protective equipment) regulations, and if you have more than a couple employees, there's OSHA regulations on top of all that.

Yes, it's possible to anodize parts in a couple of 5-gallon buckets in your garage. It's also possible to rust every steel item in your garage including your car thanks to the acid fumes. :) But you can't do much volume- and thus, anno cheaply- in 5 gallon buckets, which means bigger tubs, more room, and more chemicals, which often have to be disposed of my shipping a drum full of it to a hazmat center- and paying $300 a drum to have disposed of.

Sands- try Anodizing Inc. out of Oregon. They're a good bulk anodizer that can also do some individual work. (They did the Windex-blue Fastback Sniper on my front page.) You might also contact Mike at CCI and see who does his anodizing. Whoever that is can clearly do both bulk colors and specialty one-off patterns.

Doc.

[Ninjeff]

-And that's exactly what you need to be doing.

Ninjeff seems to think that money, time and ideas can be had for the asking, and anyone saying "we don't have the money for that" or "I don't have the time for that" just isn't trying hard enough or something. But the reality of the situation is that you guys have to make small steps, and do what improvements you can with what limited resources you have.

Small parts and accessories to start with is the best way to get back on your feet.

And I know you guys are AGD, but don't be afraid to offer parts for other markers too. :)

Doc.

No i don't man, and I'm trying to be cool but I really feel like you have a hard on for not discussing anything in good faith.

I even stated that my mistake was thinking that the conversation had changed into a conversation of ideas and what to do.
I suppose it hadn't and thats my mistake.

But seriously man, at some point you have to stop sniping everyone that comes a long and offers suggestions.

[Ninjeff]

Getting with Mike from CCI is a good idea as far as anno is concerned. We've had him out to my field a number of times for SPE and he always brings the absolute most BEAUTIFUL guns for a give away. Plus, he is a really great guy in person. Who ever he has doing the anno on those does some spectacular work.

[Doc Nickel]

No i don't man, and I'm trying to be cool but I really feel like you have a hard on for not discussing anything in good faith.

-That's just it. I am discussing this in good faith, I'm just not blowing any smoke up anyones' skirt, and I'm not, as they say, looking at everything through the proverbial rose-colored glasses.

You cannot run a business purely on hopes and good intentions. You have to have a viable business plan- "viable" meaning "it can actually work in real life"- you have to have working capital, and you have to have the time to do the work necessary.

You suggested at least twice that AGD simply had to design, build and market an all-new paintball gun in order to get back on their feet. That is, actually, entirely true, and I never denied that.

What I've kept trying to point out, is that is a HUGELY expensive proposition, both in raw cash and time and labor. It CAN be done, but at the moment, AGD has none of that. They have little working funds, barely any manpower, and between the two of them, not a great deal of spare time.

It may be a bit of Devil's Advocanism to point that out, but that is, in fact, said in good faith. It is exactly the wrong time, both for AGD themselves and the overall market in general, to invest huge sums in an all-new gun. Done exactly right and with good people, sure, it could succeed, but it's far more likely to push AGD from a small, but ongoing two-man business, over into a failed-and-closed business.

I don't want to see that happen, and so I have described some of the hurdles involved.

AGD, as noted above, is on pretty much the prefect course for a company of their limited size and funding. Start small on limited lines of parts and accessories that are inexpensive to make and buy, expand that line as time, ideas and funds allow- kind of like Inception is doing today, and quite successfully- and as funds and market share hopefully increase, perhaps eventually consider relaunching some of the classic designs, or some fresh design.

Doc.

[Spider-TW]

And with anodizing, there the additional hazmat issues to worry about. Anodizing deals with chemical and electrolyte baths, including sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide, which are toxic and can't always be just poured down the drain. (Well, the sodium hydroxide can- that's drain cleaner. :) But if it's full of aluminum smut, you're not supposed to.)

Doc.

Actually, 90% sulfuric is sold around the city as drain cleaner also, which is worse than the 13% you use for ano. You can settle out the smut and pour off the rest; it doesn't make good drain cleaner by then either. What gets nasty is when you are working on a repeatable commercial level (for resale) and you need better pre and post stripper washes, post ano/ pre dye washes, and sealer baths, usually nitric or oxalic acids and nickel acetate. You can get away without all of the extra baths when tinkering, but you need it for good, fast, repeatable quality finishes.

Commercially, you end up with lots of tanks (space), power supplies, agitators, and temperature controls, which also need to be kept clean. That's in addition to polishing machines. It may not be a big monetary investment, but more in time and space, which is why it is easy to walk away from. For small runs, you need a small and good shop, with some very specific funding agreements.

Also, if you keep a cover on the ano bath, it doesn't corrode much at all (I was surprised). The worst thing in my garage has been muratic acid (HCL) left by the previous owners from their tile projects. That vapor creeps up the wall and eats dry-wall, wood, and steel.

[vintage]

hey Tim, any luck with Elastomer on the fore grip replacement?

[Ninjeff]

Ok, so lets talk small. I'm down for that.
What was the last paintball gizmo that made you sit up and go "holy crap why didnt any one think of that sooner?"
For me it was the DP lever on/off. Still the easiest to use out of everyone's design (personal opinion) and if i could I'd put them on all my markers.

[Sandman]

hey Tim, any luck with Elastomer on the fore grip replacement?

I have not had a chance to reach out to them and see if they are interested. My concern is on a minimal run basis the cost will be too high per part.
I will find out for sure, but I'm not very confident. Buying ready made grips is already too expensive, much less having someone make one.
I'm really considering a new style foregrip altogether using grips already made within the industry. I have to run out current supply of foregrips for that.
At this point it's more feasible to do that than to have a grip made. Crazy as that may sound.

[Nobody]

Ok, so lets talk small. I'm down for that.
What was the last paintball gizmo that made you sit up and go "holy crap why didnt any one think of that sooner?"
For me it was the DP lever on/off. Still the easiest to use out of everyone's design (personal opinion) and if i could I'd put them on all my markers.

Actually, an easier way to bring people to a new gun is an electro frame that does away with the board and battery pack of the Emag. Put it in a gun with a L10 and Xvalve and you have a small package that can keep up with an Axe. Its just getting the frame designed, sourcing the boards and parts, putting it together and testing it for sale. Its those small steps that you need to make.

Though the OG and SandFX didn't sell out in a week, it is proving that AGD is making inroads to showing to the people out there that AGD is still kicking. The real trick is that we, the mag users need to do is take our guns and put them in the hands of new people. And most importantly, having a place to get a new gun for themselves. So pick some kid or new player that is talking about getting a new or better gun than they have and put your mag in their hands and convert them.