If AGD Wanted To Go Electronic ?

[Sandman]

To reiterate on electronics....those idea's are being discussed.
Luke is already doing it. Not sure when he will be ready.
It's already been done before. I like the VER frame myself. It appears that was well made, but expensive.
The key is sorting through the good and bad of what was done and making something people can afford.
My though process is that $500 is too much. But that's where the price is at right now.
If I can get it to $350...We'd kill it I think. Just don't know if it's possible at our volumes.

We'll keep looking for a solution.

[Ninjeff]

To reiterate on electronics....those idea's are being discussed.
Luke is already doing it. Not sure when he will be ready.
It's already been done before. I like the VER frame myself. It appears that was well made, but expensive.
The key is sorting through the good and bad of what was done and making something people can afford.
My though process is that $500 is too much. But that's where the price is at right now.
If I can get it to $350...We'd kill it I think. Just don't know if it's possible at our volumes.

We'll keep looking for a solution.

$350 for the frame/electronics?

[JKR]

Sandman...just want to commend you for all of the hard work you have been doing. Keep up the great work in revitalizing AGD and growing the business.

I also want to encourage everyone reading this to save up and do your best to buy a new AGD product in 2017. We can help keep AGD growing stronger with our support. So, forego that urge to go buy another used Automag from your online sources and pick up a shiny new Mag this year!

[Nobody]

$350 for the frame/electronics?

Yes and that is the key.

Anytime you do small orders, which can be little as 100 units of whatever, the price is greatly different when doing 1000s. It can then jump down to easier prices for all at those levels. Electronics are a tricky part of the equation, as you need someone to write the code and put it on the chips/boards, someone to physically make the boards, and someone to test the boards (at least on your end). Writing code could be superseeded if you are using a pre-existing code that is compatible with the board and chipset.

The sad part is, you can then run into dead electronic parts (just a fact of life), and even having spares. Then consider that sourcing the parts, you might run into numbers. You can get either 100 or 1000 units, but you need 300. It is far cheaper to get the 1k units but then stuck with stock. So you need that money and then space to house that.

Basically, the numbers on pricing just grows and grows. Hell, think about this. In order to have a viable product that is cost effective at $350. You need to add in all the screws, all the parts to have it as, i do believe, a drop in frame. That frame needs to be cost effective as it is paying for everyone (except volunteer testers) and every piece of material to make 2 of them (its the magic number in sales) & gives the seller profit for more frames or funding future projects. It is extremely hard to do but not impossible.

These are the concerns on any new endeavor, especially if you wish to say in business. I like the small calculated steps that Sandman & Zupe have done so far. While not ground breaking or extravagant, they are always going forward. That is the most important part.

[Ninjeff]

I was just trying to steer conversation away from arguing with Doc.
I think $350 is a totally fine price for it. If that's what is on the horizon, i'll totally wait to build another mag. At $350 a frame it sounds like we should be able to get an all new Mag together for...what...$650?

[maniacmechanic]

Was there a problem/failure with the Hyper frame ?? would rights to produce that frame be a problem ?

[blackdeath1k]

How have sales been on the resurrection autocockers? That is a good tentative judging point. Because these 2 markers always went neck and neck. Really the quality and longevity of the mag is a pro and con from a company standpoint. Cockers had vast improvements over the years. Mags on the other had had small refinements. But really they have been almost bulletproof since the mid 90s. Really looks, ult non ult, are about it for change. That's not counting the aftermarket of electro and pneumatics. But basically a mag built in the 90s is as good as a mag built today. Whereas a cocker built in 95 is nowhere near a more current cocker.

[going_home]

Was there a problem/failure with the Hyper frame ?? would rights to produce that frame be a problem ?

That was Centerflag.

Not sure if there are any lingering patents out there on that.

Personally I was never terribly impressed with them though.

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/etriggers/cflagmag/

[bowcycle]

Actually, an easier way to bring people to a new gun is an electro frame that does away with the board and battery pack of the Emag. Put it in a gun with a L10 and Xvalve and you have a small package that can keep up with an Axe. Its just getting the frame designed, sourcing the boards and parts, putting it together and testing it for sale. Its those small steps that you need to make.

Though the OG and SandFX didn't sell out in a week, it is proving that AGD is making inroads to showing to the people out there that AGD is still kicking. The real trick is that we, the mag users need to do is take our guns and put them in the hands of new people. And most importantly, having a place to get a new gun for themselves. So pick some kid or new player that is talking about getting a new or better gun than they have and put your mag in their hands and convert them.

This is exactly it.
We have the new website up. We have the facebook page up. So now, when someone is interested, we don't have to have lots of product on hand, they can go shopping online and you can potentially upsale them.
When we have a competitive electro frame, every necessary piece will be in place on the supply end for AGD to grow.

What's missing is all of us getting out there and loaning our mags to those who might get into the market.
Everytime I've handed someone one of my mags, they've been impressed. Even the ones that aren't flashy are still impressive for their durability and simplicity.
So get out there and always keep a good loaner on hand. Lend it out freely. Let lots of people get hands on mags.

And, let's do a recreation of the tongue-in-breech video. I guarantee that has potential to go viral. Do it with the covers off the frame so everyone can see that there are no electronics, no eyes, no gimmicks; just great designing.

[Doc Nickel]

You don't have to do the tongue, which actually is dangerous- and requires a removable X-Mag breech. I was actually more impressed with a rolled dollar-bill one. :)

Doc.

[skipdogg]

That was Centerflag.

Not sure if there are any lingering patents out there on that.

Personally I was never terribly impressed with them though.


http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech...gers/cflagmag/

The irony is that centerflag only made the hyperframes because Tom refused to. I'm sure Dennis would let AGD have the hyperframe. He and Tim would have a good laugh about it I would suspect...

[Nobody]

How have sales been on the resurrection autocockers? That is a good tentative judging point. Because these 2 markers always went neck and neck. Really the quality and longevity of the mag is a pro and con from a company standpoint. Cockers had vast improvements over the years. Mags on the other had had small refinements. But really they have been almost bulletproof since the mid 90s. Really looks, ult non ult, are about it for change. That's not counting the aftermarket of electro and pneumatics. But basically a mag built in the 90s is as good as a mag built today. Whereas a cocker built in 95 is nowhere near a more current cocker.

Cockers had the look, the built in improvability and preceived notion of being the best. They were also a proshop's dream. The stock parts were just, meh. To improve it, get a new ram, LPR, 4way, frame, valve, bolt, back block. All those parts grew to be able to literally able to build a cocker from those parts without even touching a WGP part. With those parts, you built a fan base and built up a lot of the older players love of the guns. Mags, being so refined that most aftermarket parts did little to the performance of the gun and only gave a new look. Because the lack of either creativity or costs, there was never really any parts that really changed the appearance to put that mag in a new light with players. Old preceived notions of being a blender, even after the L10 came out neger brought back the players to the fold.

The true key is showing that new players that mags are as viable in any other type of gun. Whether it is as mechs or EPs or pneumags. Now, you have to almost target those players in providing a package of that. You need to strip away the old ignorance of being a blender, of being heavy, of being anything that is or was detrimental of the mag to new players. Hell, even playing in the rain with a mech, is something that a lot of guns just can not do.

[Nobody]

The irony is that centerflag only made the hyperframes because Tom refused to. I'm sure Dennis would let AGD have the hyperframe. He and Tim would have a good laugh about it I would suspect...

Do we need to have a 20 year old design or can we do something to improve it?

[blackdeath1k]

Cockers had the look, the built in improvability and preceived notion of being the best. They were also a proshop's dream. The stock parts were just, meh. To improve it, get a new ram, LPR, 4way, frame, valve, bolt, back block. All those parts grew to be able to literally able to build a cocker from those parts without even touching a WGP part. With those parts, you built a fan base and built up a lot of the older players love of the guns. Mags, being so refined that most aftermarket parts did little to the performance of the gun and only gave a new look. Because the lack of either creativity or costs, there was never really any parts that really changed the appearance to put that mag in a new light with players. Old preceived notions of being a blender, even after the L10 came out neger brought back the players to the fold.

The true key is showing that new players that mags are as viable in any other type of gun. Whether it is as mechs or EPs or pneumags. Now, you have to almost target those players in providing a package of that. You need to strip away the old ignorance of being a blender, of being heavy, of being anything that is or was detrimental of the mag to new players. Hell, even playing in the rain with a mech, is something that a lot of guns just can not do.

To me any gun that was a blender in the 90s due to speed had that issue erased with FF hoppers. Warp feed never had a real chance to take off when FF came our just a year or so later. Angels and mags alike were blenders because people out shot there hoppers. That was user error but caused a stigma.

I think a lot has been done in the last year to reserect AGD. All subtle. But it all adds up and the co owners get mad props for all the baby steps.

I'd love to see xmt bodies and Luke's bodies and parts as a link on AGD site or for sale by agd. Honestly the amount of people that know about the aftermarket is just a small percent of the ones that even know AGD is still around.

[BigEvil]

Do we need to have a 20 year old design or can we do something to improve it?

Huh? What?