If AGD Wanted To Go Electronic ?

[Ninjeff]

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The other option, travelling to events, is hugely expensive. Air travel, hotel rooms for several nights, shipping product, or driving to an event. If it's a big tourney, there's booth fees and entry/vendor fees on top of that. For something like the World Cup, I've heard of small vendors- not even guys like SP or DYE- spending $5K to have a booth there. (Travel, car rental, hotel, various transport costs, booth fees, etc.)

Doc.

Yea, things like World Cup are a huge cost. Still, there are a lot of really good fields around the midwest to dip the toes in for little to no cost. Most within a few hours drive time. I'm not sure what CPX is charging for vendor stuff now (probably a lot at Legends) but you also have Paintball Explosion, Ft Knox paintball in Indiana (great guys and a great field) Pekin Paintball downstate that runs some good tournaments Sudden Impact Paintball downstate that does some great events, Fox paintball which has always had ties to AGD, Xtreme Paintball further south that has some great folks, Wildcat paintball who has some great folks.....
I'm sure most of us around the area would be happy to help out and host a spot at a Big Game. Might not sell a lot, but it gets some buzz generated. Maybe.
Start with "AGD IS STILL HERE YOU GUYS!" and spin from there maybe.

Or not. Hell i dont know. You guys have me questioning everything i'm thinking now. lol

[Nobody]

Sorry if this was covered already, but didn't get a chance to read all replies. Anybody that's in this thread that's played for at least a decade should know that 99% of new designs of paintball guns fail miserably. Ice epics, nova 700, cyber 9000, evil omen, satco, at-85, etc. All a flash in the pan. But I remember the first time I shot an angel in 97, the thing was a blender and I thought it would never amount to nothing. Innovation is good, but agd is not in the position to be innovative much past existing designs in the market as it stands.

Only if you knew something. Leagal issues with the Satco prevented it come even being released. The Nova 700, eventually morphed into the Matrix/spool designs of today. The Cyber 9000, was nothing more than the PVI shocker but with a host of far reaching add-ons that did not work as intended. The Ice Epic, was worthy (and you can still buy them new, now) but needed some refinements to the design to make it viable, but i believe that the valve/actuation is physically limited in pure RoF.

As for the Angel, when you have the capabilities of firing faster than you can feed the gun, you'll have a blender no matter what (hey, isn't this why TK with the help of Simon, help develop the warp?). Have a loader that can keep up with it and no problems.

[Ninjeff]

The Evil Omen did "ok" until the demise of Evil didnt it?

[cudamelland]

"Additionally, i'd like to see AGD "get out" more. Get to Legends at CPX right down the road, hit up the big games and big events in the state."

This might be possible. Maybe not for Sandman, but as AO. Last time i was at Super Game in Oregon (a big game) Custom Cockers had a booth. They didn't have anything for sale they just talked to everyone walking by and helped tech cockers all weekend. We have members everywhere it might be possible to set something up in big events. IDK just food for thought

[Evil1]

Only if you knew something. Leagal issues with the Satco prevented it come even being released. The Nova 700, eventually morphed into the Matrix/spool designs of today. The Cyber 9000, was nothing more than the PVI shocker but with a host of far reaching add-ons that did not work as intended. The Ice Epic, was worthy (and you can still buy them new, now) but needed some refinements to the design to make it viable, but i believe that the valve/actuation is physically limited in pure RoF.

As for the Angel, when you have the capabilities of firing faster than you can feed the gun, you'll have a blender no matter what (hey, isn't this why TK with the help of Simon, help develop the warp?). Have a loader that can keep up with it and no problems.

Yes. But none of these new innovative designs really took off with the originators. With agd being as small as it already is, a "failure" could spell it's end. I know all about the markers I stated and what they may have turned into. I have never seen a working nova 700 or an ice epic. The two evil omens I saw in person were having issues. All I was saying is that alot of paintball companies went under because of "innovation"....

[Evil1]

Only if you knew something. Leagal issues with the Satco prevented it come even being released. The Nova 700, eventually morphed into the Matrix/spool designs of today. The Cyber 9000, was nothing more than the PVI shocker but with a host of far reaching add-ons that did not work as intended. The Ice Epic, was worthy (and you can still buy them new, now) but needed some refinements to the design to make it viable, but i believe that the valve/actuation is physically limited in pure RoF.

As for the Angel, when you have the capabilities of firing faster than you can feed the gun, you'll have a blender no matter what (hey, isn't this why TK with the help of Simon, help develop the warp?). Have a loader that can keep up with it and no problems.

And even warp feeds. As good as they are, I have rarely seen them widely used aside from here.

[going_home]

Isnt Youtube free ?

Theres your free advertising.

Need Tim and all the OG guns to go to an event and send a camera man to upload 4 or 5 Youtubes from every event.

Several weeks before the event start hyping it on Youtube.

With a little planning and a decent cell phone camera and a designated spokesman interest and sales will increase.

As long as there are level 10's there will be mag techs needed.

[Doc Nickel]

Anybody that's in this thread that's played for at least a decade should know that 99% of new designs of paintball guns fail miserably. Ice epics, nova 700, cyber 9000, evil omen, satco, at-85, etc. All a flash in the pan.

-Well, that's not really fair, as you pretty much picked a handful of boutique-made, niche-market guns that were considered oddball even back when they were new.

The Cyber 9000 didn't fail so much as the company itself failed. SP had bankrupted PVI over the original Shocker, and so PVI later tried to bring a fresh version of the design out as the C9K. But they were operating on a bare shoestring, and it was no easier to being an entire marker to light back then than it is now. I suspect they shopped the design around, but couldn't find a company willing to foot the production bill. (And there were rumors that SP was telling dealers that if they carried the C9K, SP would pull their inventory- and even back then SP was an 800-pound gorilla.)

The Epic was another boutique-made niche-market gun. There was never anything particularly exciting about the gun- other than it was "boltless"- and the maker never managed to find anyone to carry and distribute it. As noted above, supposedly you can order a new one even today, although I strongly suspect he hasn't actually manufactured any new parts in probably 10 years.

The SATCO was dead before it was even properly born, but it wasn't an issue with the gun itself, it was company troubles that may have included the death of one of the major people involved.

The AT-85 was actually quite successful for a while, but it was also not really intended to be a paintball gun, as much as it was a military and police training tool. And eventually, the delicate mechanical full-auto and chain-drive systems just proved to fragile. Out of all the ones you listed, this one was probably one of the only ones that "failed"- after about ten years- for mechanical reasons.

More apt suggestions might be guns like the Sheridan Equalizer. Had a lot going for it, but was strangled by a couple of corporate, boardroom-mandated changes, and despite having the backing of Benjamin-Sheridan (Benjamin having been around since something like 1890, so not exactly a flash-in-the-pan) still crashed in flames.

But then again, try to think of a current, modern marker, that's still being produced, that even existed back in 2000. Only one I can think of is the Model 98. Angel's gone, 'Mags are gone, 'Cockers are gone, Intimidators have morphed into the C6R (sort of) Matrixes have evolved into the current M2 (again, sort of) anything Indian Creek, AKA or Sheridan is all gone... the list goes on.

Doc.

[Doc Nickel]

Still, there are a lot of really good fields around the midwest to dip the toes in for little to no cost. Most within a few hours drive time.

-It's not just booth fees. It's spending an entire weekend travelling, getting a hotel room, having to get time off from work (it sounds like the AGD guys have day jobs) and so on. And you can't necessarily do it in a small economy car either- you need to pack a tent, chairs, tables, banners, product, laptops and phones, change of clothes, all that sort of thing.

Put it this way- get off work at 5:00 pm, head home, pack the truck, and start driving to an event 500 miles away. Get to the local hotel at 3 am, sack out 'til 7 am, drive to the event, set up the booth, sit around in the booth for 12 hours, pack the booth back into the truck, head back to the hotel, sleep until 7 am the next day, set up the booth again, sit around for 10 hours, pack again, drive 10 hours home, go straight to bed, then get up at 8:00 am to go back to work.

Do that ten or twelve times in a summer and you're pretty much wasted and getting sick of it. And if each one costs you only $500 each time (just gas and hotel can cost that much, easy) that starts adding up to some significant cash.

Yes, it can be worthwhile if you have the product to sell and are looking to get your name out there. But that's a lot of time and effort if all you're doing is showing up with parts and accessories for markers that almost nobody at those events even owns.

Doc.

[Doc Nickel]

Isnt Youtube free? Theres your free advertising.

-I have five videos on YouTube (thanks to a YT glitch, under two different names.) Ever seen any of them?

YouTube is not advertising. It only gives you a free and easy place to host a video. YouTube does NOT do any kind of promoting or promotional of your video. IF- and that's a big IF- your video starts "going viral" and you start, as they say, "trending"- which these days means you're getting hundreds of thousands of pageviews a day, if not per hour- you might find it being posted to the main page.

But throw up a new video about an Automag? That'll be jammed back 20 pages in on the search results until it's seen 60K page views.

The way to use a video is to post it, and THEN you start spamming the URL around to get people to go watch it.

Doc.

[Ninjeff]

I feel like you missed my entire post about all the fields within 2 hours of Chicago.
All of which have Scenario Events and Big Games and even entire WEEKENDS dedicated to "old school" paintball.

Yea, I mean, I get your point man. I work a full time 40 hour week too. Then I work/manage a paintball field on the weekends. Every weekend. Saturday and Sunday for 9 months of the year, and have for 10 years. That's 10 years of no weekends in the spring, summer, and fall. All because i love the sport and turned a hobby into a job.

Yea, I get it man, **** is tough.

Nothing will every change if everyone sits around and find all reasons it shouldn't.
So far I'm hearing, AGD shouldn't do a high end gun, a mid level gun, or a rental gun. No pumps,no electro, no new designs, no innovation, no marketing, and no effort to contact or meet players out side of this forum which only has players that already know about AGD and so don't need sold on the idea. I mean, seriously. Pack up some of those sexy mags and get them in the hands of players for a game or two. Quality DOES shoot straight so let them see it and feel it and shoot it. I never said go to world cup or drive 500 miles. I said find some fields in the area of AGD, get in contact with them, and find out if you can bring some gear and rub elbows with the players. I cant think of a single midsize field that wouldn't let you toss up a pop-up and a table and show the players your gear during a big game or scenario event. We not only let you, we ENCOURAGE it. Want people to know AGD is still around? Get out there and say "hi" then! And maybe you don't sell all those mags in 2 minutes like 10 years ago, but maybe you sell them in 2 months instead of 4.

Get out there, say hi, play paintball. Have fun. Remember why this is good stuff to begin with.

[Doc Nickel]

So far I'm hearing, AGD shouldn't do a high end gun, a mid level gun, or a rental gun. No pumps,no electro, no new designs, no innovation, no marketing, and no effort to contact or meet players out side of this forum which only has players that already know about AGD and so don't need sold on the idea.

-You're missing the point. I'm not giving an "excuse" why it "can't" happen, I'm explaining why it hasn't happened.

At no point did I say AGD shouldn't build X gun, I'm pointing out solid and realistic reasons why they haven't, and the hurdles they will face when they try. Hey, I would LOVE to see AGD come out with each and every one of those, and I'd love to see them all sell like hotcakes. Trust me, I'm a fan. I have three 'Mags myself, I have a customer's Pneumag on the table as we speak, I just helped drag a buddy back into the sport by helping set him up with a TAC-1 he got for a great price, and I've been selling my 'Cocker-thread barrel adapters for the 'Mag since 2004.

But, I'm also a machinist, a gun designer, a short-run production manufacturer, and at the moment, a paid R&D tech. I am by no means an expert, but I do have a little more insight than most into just what it takes to design, prototype, build, test, produce and market paintball gear.

As I've said a couple of times now, designing, prototyping and building a gun is fabulously expensive in both time and money. From what I understand, AGD is comprised of two guys, both of whom apparently work regular day jobs, and handle the various company operations in their spare time. I'm also given to understand that AGD does not currently make much income from sales at the moment.

So you're asking them to spend time they don't have, and money they don't have, to build a gun that hasn't even been designed.

Now, that said, if any one of those three things can be changed, then the game will change.

I mean, seriously. Pack up some of those sexy mags and get them in the hands of players for a game or two. Quality DOES shoot straight so let them see it and feel it and shoot it.

-Showing off a sample does no good if you have little or no product to sell.

Doc.

[Nobody]

A local field, would of course allow anyone to put up a popup and have a table. The field brings the people, and people come to the field. But that is not "LIVING LEGENDS". You try to put up a popup in the vendor area and the staff nazis, will tell you to pull it down. Space is money to a major event like that. Those spaces are worth money, because you are expecting 2000 people that weekend, not 200. The field gets the people there, vendors come to the field, only so many spaces available so be able to sell, and you as a vendor/dealler are literally PAYING for the privilege of having a chance to be at that event.

Honestly for a big game event, there are a ton of industry people out there. All of the companies are there or just about. Again, the names, the event, the companies, all bring the people there:and the field for hosting it wants their piece of the pie. If you can't charge at the door, then they will change where they can.

Yes, word of mouth can bring some people to you. Yes, talking ball will and does happen, but that takes time. Would anyone go there if they can just talk? Fun yes, but time is money. With an operation as small as AGD is; that time could be banked with families, with products or even talking to the desiners/manufacturers about parts being made or will be made.

You have to get realistic about where paintball is and how AGD can effect it. I would love to see a new xvalve that is even lighter but made in tadem with a new generation of bodies that could be more sexxxy. So that valve would need a new rail, which needs a new frame and it is basically a new gun. So where is time better spent, trying to find every nickle in order to get some new parts out, so you could go to an event and sell dir3ct to the masses or rubbing elbows with people who might buy a product that you are talking about?

[Nobody]

Please remember, this is not jumping on a bad idea, just more of correctly a line of thinking to the realities of paintball and the costs on a global scale.

So just for gits and shiggles. Let us design a new trigger for the Iframe. We are lucky enough to have the old designs for the dimensions which is a huge help. Mapping out the telemetry is a very time consuming process. You need a designer. Designer #1 says, 1 month, $500. Ok, you pay him, you spend days trading info on wants and likes till you iron out what you want.now, you need to prototype this. You do meed to check the design against the product. So you turn to the machinist. He says, 1 month, $1500. He gives you viable prototypes. You take those prototypes to the designer with you likes and wants. This takes thay month of hammering and tweaking the design, but you have your trigger.

Now, with design in hand and the prototypes, you turn to your machine shop. You have 3 quotes: 100 units at $100 per, 1000 at $50 per and 10,000 at $1. How many do you want? You then have to get them finished, polished and ready for anno. 1000 units to the polisher is saying 2 months & $5000. Anno guy is cheap at $500 for the whole bunch but is backlogged and will take 6 months for basick black.

So at this point, you are out $12k and almost a year just for a trigger. Some of this figures are inflated but some might be on the money. That is just a trigger. A new gun like what was said before, will reafh 6 figures.

We all want this to happen, but unless someone hits the lotto, don't hold your breath. I am happy that some one is still there answering the phone at AGD.

[Ninjeff]

You know what?

I read back through the whole thread and realize my mistake was thinking the topic had turned into talk of future possibilities and "what could AGD do to____"
But, it hadn't.
I suppose that explains the difference in how any one is approaching the subject.
So, never mind. Carry on!