Hammerhead barrels, and their lies!

["the FitZ"]

When hammerhead first came about it looked pretty shnazzy when you could actually see the rifling down the center of the barrel. Good marketing. I believe I read somewhere that the makers of the this barrel also designed equipment for franchi,benneli, beretta, and maybe winchester. All awesome gun companies. But paintballs are not bullets and markers are not guns. but it still shows they have experience in projectiles. Then I flipped the page.

So now I hear again about them and your argument about hype. I believe it is a matter of perception. They, I think, actually DO believe their product works the way it says it does. The customers love it so, hey guys we did a good job. Then there are always some people who haven't shot it, don't plan to shoot it, and just read it off as hype. Those are the people that drive away customers from a good product. It may be good barrel then you say LIES ITS ALL LIES, but then you follow up with this is a great product? WTF It's great but not for the reasons they say. WTF

So now here is a totally different question. w/ an 8'' barrel shooting 280fps you get x ft. in range/useable range or w/e. Now you use the 12'' barrel. You can't just plug it in. You have to do something first, turn the velocity up. whether it be friction or anything that holds it back. would you still get x ft in range? obviously you get less efficiency. I think there must be something left out in that experiment b/c I just can't make those cross field shots w/ an 8'' barrel. It must be the extra gas you use to get the same fps. and since it is a give and get situation is this what gives you extra range. because after chronoing the 12'' if you put the 8 back in you would be over that 280 fps mark. maybe you could get the same range then, it would just be illegal. Help me find the answer to this question.

[frop]

Hey Mike,

Hooray for jackassery!

(I love that word :) )

[frop]

So now here is a totally different question. w/ an 8'' barrel shooting 280fps you get x ft. in range/useable range or w/e. Now you use the 12'' barrel. You can't just plug it in. You have to do something first, turn the velocity up. whether it be friction or anything that holds it back. would you still get x ft in range? obviously you get less efficiency. I think there must be something left out in that experiment b/c I just can't make those cross field shots w/ an 8'' barrel. It must be the extra gas you use to get the same fps. and since it is a give and get situation is this what gives you extra range. because after chronoing the 12'' if you put the 8 back in you would be over that 280 fps mark. maybe you could get the same range then, it would just be illegal. Help me find the answer to this question.

The only thing that makes sense here is that it takes more air to shoot a ball out of a longer barrel.

As has been said before in this thread, there's nothing a longer barrel does to increase range more than the four extra inches of the barrel. Simply stated, same velocity + same angle = same range. Barrel has no effect.
Or do you have elves in your gun?

[hitech]

So now here is a totally different question. w/ an 8'' barrel shooting 280fps you get x ft. in range/useable range or w/e. Now you use the 12'' barrel. You can't just plug it in. You have to do something first, turn the velocity up. whether it be friction or anything that holds it back. would you still get x ft in range? obviously you get less efficiency. I think there must be something left out in that experiment b/c I just can't make those cross field shots w/ an 8'' barrel. It must be the extra gas you use to get the same fps. and since it is a give and get situation is this what gives you extra range. because after chronoing the 12'' if you put the 8 back in you would be over that 280 fps mark. maybe you could get the same range then, it would just be illegal. Help me find the answer to this question.

If you want to see how far a paintball will travel, go here. You will note that there is NO entry for barrel length. Tom stated that the numbers derived from that are close to his observations from the extensive ballistics testing he did. I don't remember the difference, but the calculator is probably a little long as it doesn't include the extra drag induced from vortex shedding.

["the FitZ"]

okay so I just read a little more and here is something else I don't understand. Once a ball leaves the barrel it is no longer affected by the barrel. Okay I get it. But I'm thinking 'once the damage is done' you know. Can you elaborate on this. b/c I can drill a hole in a rock and shoot a paintball out of it. obviously the rock has no effect after the ball leaves the rock.

and another thing. Why do we believe what tom says? He could be feeding as much bs as the guy from hammerhead. Is it b/c he has tests. I can call shenanigans on that. He just wrote some numbers down and let his minions (thats us) spread them all over the universe. Or is it b/c he's a nice guy. and wouldn't dare tell a lie or hype. I would wait for someone to choose this but won't. I remember a big banner on this forum about the xvalve. capable of shooting 26 bps. yes it does. yes it's been proven. But since you or I cant pull the trigger that fast I guess we'll never know or be able to use it on the field. I love automags. Not being sarcastic about the last comment.

Oh, or do we listen to TK b/c he's...what's that word... 'qualified'. Don't be infected by Tk's lies! listen to the dancing banana he's qualified

[Lohman446]

okay so I just read a little more and here is something else I don't understand. Once a ball leaves the barrel it is no longer affected by the barrel. Okay I get it. But I'm thinking 'once the damage is done' you know. Can you elaborate on this. b/c I can drill a hole in a rock and shoot a paintball out of it. obviously the rock has no effect after the ball leaves the rock.

and another thing. Why do we believe what tom says? He could be feeding as much bs as the guy from hammerhead. Is it b/c he has tests. I can call shenanigans on that. He just wrote some numbers down and let his minions (thats us) spread them all over the universe. Or is it b/c he's a nice guy. and wouldn't dare tell a lie or hype. I would wait for someone to choose this but won't. I remember a big banner on this forum about the xvalve. capable of shooting 26 bps. yes it does. yes it's been proven. But since you or I cant pull the trigger that fast I guess we'll never know or be able to use it on the field. I love automags. Not being sarcastic about the last comment.

Oh, or do we listen to TK b/c he's...what's that word... 'qualified'. Don't be infected by Tk's lies! listen to the dancing banana he's qualified

I beleive TK because of the Perfect Circle paintball failure to come to market... he made the better paintball, saw it did not do anything special, and told us...

["the FitZ"]

wow you guys are quick! Thanx for the answers but from MY experience a 12'' doesn't shoot as far as a 14'' I just figured it's the same for 8 to 12. Obviously tom's experience is different. So should I drop my experience and just listen to him?

[frop]

Tom didn't just write numbers down he posted DATA. Pics too.

[hitech]

wow you guys are quick! Thanx for the answers but from MY experience a 12'' doesn't shoot as far as a 14'' I just figured it's the same for 8 to 12. Obviously tom's experience is different. So should I drop my experience and just listen to him?

Your experience doesn't even come close to a scientific test. Do one and change your experience.

I believe Tom because I have talked with him personally about many paintball related questions. While I didn't always get perfectly straight answers, I never discovered one lie. And it's real easy to see when Tom is talking around something. He also posted some of the pictures from his testing. Basically, he has established a level of creditability.

Additionally, I found the vortex shedding phenomenon myself. With someone else doing the calculations with formulas I found "we" derived the lateral force exerted on a paintball due to vortex shedding. It was easy to draw the conclusion that all other known forces exerted on a paintball in flight can't compete with vortex shedding.

I've NEVER found any creditable information that contradicts Tom's claims. That builds creditability.

On the subject of perfect circle paintballs. They do have advantages over gelatin paintballs. They are not affected by moisture. They impart less energy per square inch on impact because of the way they break apart on impact. They just don't fly any straighter. I remember when Tom was trying to market these things (the first time I met him). He went into detail about their advantages, even with slow motion graphics of how they fracture versus a gelatin paintball. When it came to accuracy, he pointed out that they had no seam, and said, with a little grin, "we all know what that means...". He never said they were more accurate. I think he believed they would be, but didn't have any data (yet) to prove it. Much later I asked him why they never sold them to paintballers. He mentioned the fact that they were not any more accurate and that paintball prices dropped significantly around that time and he couldn't compete price wise.

I'm sure that is more than anyone wanted to know...

_____________________________________________


Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
Hitech is the man.... - Blennidae
The only Hitech Lubricant

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

Testing and Paintball HAHAHAHAHa , the two words put together seem at odds with each other. I have done some testing on regulators but I wouldn't call it concrete, at best just a glimpse of possibilities. Right now its a hype driven market, eventually we will start seeing some testing if nothing else just so manufacturers can put "33% Faster Electronic Reaction Time combined with a 150% flow CPM and 50% reaction time to the industry standard pnuematic regulator"

Az

[Mister Sinister]

I'm still trying to figure out how peoples perceptions count for more than data gained from scientific observation. All these arguements that the hammerheads do have some sort of edge in range or accuracy are bunk. Using them further is tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. At this point what I say is its put up or shut up time. As far as Iam concerned its up to the proponents of the magical hammerhead to prove that it is better.

[vonort]

Why don't you "prove" that it isn't better?

[Lohman446]

Why don't you "prove" that it isn't better?

Proving a negative is nearly impossible. We can attempt to answer these questions

Can it reliably impart spin on a paintball? All indications are no. A) The rifling does not touch the ball consistently, or with enough pressure to induce spin. B) TK tested the idea of spinning paintballs by spinning the entire marker in a machine and was unable to induce spin at much higher "spin" rates than the rifling of this barrel could induce

Can it shoot further? All indications are no. Base physics and all testing done up to this point indicate that a ball leaving a barrel at 300FPS will go as far as a ball leaving another barrel at 300FPS.

Further testing and into ideas such as vortex shedding indicate once outside of the barrel the effect the barrel has on the ball (aside from setting it on the path it was on) is about zero.

When all published data and base physics support that it is not better, I would say it is up to the makers of Hammerhead to show us it is. And not hide behind "years of R&D" that end with statements that begin with "we beleive". Show us statements that say "controlled testing indicates" and then show us the tests and the data.

[oldsoldier]

Actually, the rep was right in a way. The 12 inch barrel can shoot 4 inches farther than the 8 inch barrel.

Technically, you are wrong. A target, say 20' away, fired from a gun with a LONGER barrel, the projectile actually travels LESS distance. :)
This debate has been done a thousand times. A projectile leaving the barrel at 300 FPS will go the SAME DISTANCE as one fired from another barrel, barring a backspin. And, backspins, particularly on paintballs, are unpredicatble at best. They arent perfectly round, dont all load the exact same way, regulators arent consistent...there are just WAY too many variables in the equation. Ones that cant be corrected by the user. Sorry, hammerhead is full of BS. We saw that a couple of years ago...and, its good to see they havent changed their selling tactics.

[Target Practice]

Why don't you "prove" that it isn't better?

Why, you buy one too?

We proved that "rifling" has negligable effects at best. It has "rifling". What more do you want?