WHY is everything made in China

[aaron_mag]

Hmmmm missed this debate. First off from what I have seen 1stdeadeye, Collegeboy, and Shartley all in essence agree about the original question of the thread (Why is everything made in China). The differences all come down to semantics and I find it interesting that CB chooses to put things in the most incendiary way (China produces these things better...). Plus why do you (CB) say that the cheap labor argument is just a myth then turn around and say it has to do with the components of production. Since your very next post discusses that labor is a component of production you are essentially agreeing with the cheap labor argument (which you call a myth). It is almost like you have to say something is wrong just to prove that you know something special even though every idiot anywhere knows that cheap labor is what draws multinationals to produce goods in China.

Now in regards to tarrifs I have no idea why some people would want to seal off our country from trade. If history has shown anything it is that countries that seal off their borders eventually fall behind and are dominated by other nations. An interesting fact is that Japan had more firearms (and better firearms) than any other nation at one point (including European nations). Then they decided to outlaw them and seal off their borders. They tried to rid themselves of everything foriegn. Of course Captain Perry with his ship with guns put a stop to that!

Some tarrifs are definetly good. First off some industries are vital for national security (even such things as farming). Furthermore while in theory the "invisible hand of market forces" will eventually restore a balance the fact remains that this process is slow, painful, inefficient, drastically effects culture, etc. We do not live in the "long run" since we all grow old and die. Furthermore as human beings we are not purely motivated by economic forces. Obviously huge forced cultural changes (by economic forces) is not good for the human psyche! Therefore some tarrifs are needed. We could even get into unfair trade practices by other nations where they protect their own industries and try and destroy ours as further arguments for tarrifs but then we would be going on forever.... :)

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by beam
No, what I said was that if communism existed the way you say it should, it would be one of the most brutal systems.

That is what comunism is or is suppose to be. The road to it could be brutal, but in itself is not brutal.

The Cheap labor idea is that Cheap labor is THE reason for production in China. It is not THE reason, it is A reason, but not THE reason, that is why it is a myth.

[1stdeadeye]

CB,
You are back to your semantics game again. Because a country doesn't live up to the theory of Communism, doesn't mean they are not communist. How many things change from the theory/idea stage to the implementation stage. Heck, technically, there is no such thing as a true democracy then. We have a representative democracy.

Simple analogy for you. COncept car is cool, looks perfect, but is too impractical to be made. The production car comes out with the same name as the concept and most of the features. In the REAL world, you have to adjust. Your THEORIES may need adjustment to work in the real world. That is what China, Cuba, the USSR, etc... did.

BTW, What the hell is a nationalist(your quote on VIetnam) form of government? I was a Poly Sci major and don't recall ever seeing that form of gov't in any of my texts!

[aaron_mag]

and another thing.....

Lets quit arguing every time if a country "truly is communist" followed by challenging us to read Marx and Engels (which by the way I was forced to read in college). First off it is a FACT that the meaning of words evolve. When someone says China, the USSR, or Cuba is communist everyone understands what the poster means. It might not be what Marx and Engels meant by communist but WHO CARES? They are dead and the word has evolved to mean something else to most people.

You have stated that the Communist Manifesto defined communist? The concept of communism predates Marx and Engels. It has probably been with us since the beginning of time. Of course Communist literature of that time period was a huge part in the evolution of communism and what it means but you want to say that China, Cuba, and the USSR have not redefined what this concept means to most people?

The fact is that semantics debates are for the small minded. I could easily argue that language is a poor communication tool because inherently every word means something slightly different to me than to anyone else. In the end, however, it is the best we have since we haven't gotten around to being telepathic yet. My point is that we could all buy copies of the Communist Manifesto and debate what it exactly means ad nauseum if that was what we wanted but we don't. We are debating something entirely different and someone uses the word communist to prove a point and we all understand that they are not talking about the exact definition as proposed by Marx so we move on to the meat of the argument.

For the same reason the myth argument is also a non issue to me. When someone says that cheap labor is the reason I understand that they are generalizing and giving a quick answer. I do not feel the need to educate them on the error of their ways.

Now for the interesting part which is 1stdeadeye's comment on how we could destroy the economies of other nations if only the darn WTO didn't get in our way. Another comment is "What we see coming out of China is, for the most part, an INFERIOR product, made out of INFERIOR materials, produced by companies who pay their employees INFERIOR wages. But hey, it's cheap, right?"

Why are you guys turning this into a debate of US production capability versus China? Furthermore what gives with inferior products? First off (for the most part) it is multinational companies producing in China for export to the rest of the world so it isn't an us versus them thing. Labor in the U.S. is obviously one of the most productive labor forces in the world but produces other goods and services than China.

Also don't disparage gaming geeks! You are about the same age as I am so I'm betting you were part of that whole thing where gaming was huge and you probably played (I certainly did) I think the computer gaming industry, however, has probably destroyed the gaming industry but I don't know.

[shartley]

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by shartley
And how many variations of Christianity do we have? And they all use the same base text to work from.

I know you are joking Shartley but that is the perfect example so I'm going to borrow it. If someone says that Iraq is a Muslim nation we don't argue about it even though there are christian in Iraq. Same when people say that the U.S. is a christian nation even though it is religiously diverse. The reason we don't argue these points is because we UNDERSTAND what the person means when they say this. Same when someone says that China or Cuba is communist. We understand what they mean. My point, CB, is that we are not debating the meaning of communism but discussing something else entirely!

[1stdeadeye]

Re: and another thing.....

Originally posted by aaron_mag
Now for the interesting part which is 1stdeadeye's comment on how we could destroy the economies of other nations if only the darn WTO didn't get in our way. Another comment is "What we see coming out of China is, for the most part, an INFERIOR product, made out of INFERIOR materials, produced by companies who pay their employees INFERIOR wages. But hey, it's cheap, right?"

You missed my point. CB was saying that true capitalism is what gave China the advantage. I was pointing out other factors like the WTO. Am I a fan of the WTO, no, but I am also pragmatic and realize it isn't going anywhere either.

Why are you guys turning this into a debate of US production capability versus China? Furthermore what gives with inferior products? First off (for the most part) it is multinational companies producing in China for export to the rest of the world so it isn't an us versus them thing. Labor in the U.S. is obviously one of the most productive labor forces in the world but produces other goods and services than China.

It was not supposed to be that. We were simply pointing out that most of China's advantage is due to the unlevel playing field they are using, not that they are "better" then US manufacturers.

Also don't disparage gaming geeks! You are about the same age as I am so I'm betting you were part of that whole thing where gaming was huge and you probably played (I certainly did) I think the computer gaming industry, however, has probably destroyed the gaming industry but I don't know.

Nope, never was a gaming geek!

I played sports every waking moment I had. After I broke my leg in H.S. I became a thespian! D&D just never appealed to me. Must be because of my lack of immagination!

So there AM, you gaming geek!

[Collegeboy]

[aaron_mag]

Re: Re: and another thing.....

First off I am not going to get into the debate on the definition of communism. I don't have a problem with people calling China communist. Yes it is different than the idyllic paradise where we all put in extra hours at AGD so that all can have Xmags with which to light each other up but we all understand what the person means.

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
You missed my point. CB was saying that true capitalism is what gave China the advantage. I was pointing out other factors like the WTO. Am I a fan of the WTO, no, but I am also pragmatic and realize it isn't going anywhere either.

We were simply pointing out that most of China's advantage is due to the unlevel playing field they are using, not that they are "better" then US manufacturers.

I don't think that most of China's "advantage" has to do with an unlevel playing field. First off this is not a competition of US manufacturers versus Chinese manufacturers. This is US manufacturers (and other multinationals) choosing to manufacture goods in China versus the U.S. The U.S. work force, however, is used to produce other goods and services. Our workers are not in direct competition with China for these jobs. Note that it was the South Korean economy that was hurt by the building of Chinese factories and not the U.S. economy.

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Nope, never was a gaming geek!

I played sports every waking moment I had. After I broke my leg in H.S. I became a thespian! D&D just never appealed to me. Must be because of my lack of immagination!

So there AM, you gaming geek!

Sheesh...a thespian. Actually I played football and ran track in high school and was in a couple plays. Actually a bad combination as both the jocks and the thespians are convinced there must be something wrong with you since you associate with "those weirdos!"

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
But the truth of the matter is, if communism was ever instated, it would be the shinning example of peace, productivity, etc...

ahha haaaha hh ahaha ahha hahha ahahha

Oh man thanks for makin my day.

THAT is comedy gold right there....

[Collegeboy]

Your welcome X, the sad part is it is true, yet most people think communism is evil.

And communism is the paridise as I have said, if there is a government, then it is not communism, if it has un equal pay wages, then it is not communism, etc........

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Your welcome X, the sad part is it is true, yet most people think communism is evil.

And communism is the paridise as I have said, if there is a government, then it is not communism, if it has un equal pay wages, then it is not communism, etc........

True democracy would be paradise, not communism.

Communism was always sold to the peasants as taking the gentry from their mansions and making everyone equal. The problem with that sales pitch is that the gentry were brought down to the peasants level and not bringing the peasants to the gentry's level.

A true democracy would give everyone equal voice and say in government, however it is unworkable in anything over the size of a small village/town. This also would not penalize anyone with the initiative to work harder then their neighbors and thus earn more then them.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


True democracy would be paradise, not communism.

Communism was always sold to the peasants as taking the gentry from their mansions and making everyone equal. The problem with that sales pitch is that the gentry were brought down to the peasants level and not bringing the peasants to the gentry's level.

A true democracy would give everyone equal voice and say in government, however it is unworkable in anything over the size of a small village/town. This also would not penalize anyone with the initiative to work harder then their neighbors and thus earn more then them.

But the gentry would want to be brought down for the good of the state. But see that would happen in the events that lead up to communism. In communism they would all be willing to do anything as long as it is for the good of the state. There will be no need for a government, or even a government, and there will be no disorder. For disorder will not be good for the state.

A democracy in the eyes of communism is one of the most oppressive governments out there. The saying went, every 4 years they get together and vote for those who will oppress them.

There is a reason that the way to communism starts with democracy.

[aaron_mag]

And once again we descend into discussing why communism would or would not be a shining example of peace and prosperity to man.

Might as well debate if Star Trek is an accurate view of the future....

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


But the gentry would want to be brought down for the good of the state. But see that would happen in the events that lead up to communism. In communism they would all be willing to do anything as long as it is for the good of the state. There will be no need for a government, or even a government, and there will be no disorder. For disorder will not be good for the state.

I have a new name for communism then: The Borg!

That is why communism CAN NOT exist among human beings! We have ambitions and drive. We have free will! Communism is unnatural in the way you show it as you want the collective to dominate individual stifling free will and drive.

The Communists will assimilate you. Resistance is futile!

A democracy in the eyes of communism is one of the most oppressive governments out there. The saying went, every 4 years they get together and vote for those who will oppress them.

There is a reason that the way to communism starts with democracy.

I said true democracy, not representative democracy. Jeez you of all people should understand when I talk about "True" Democracy, kind of like your "True" Communism.