Decrease ROF...WHY not DECREASE VELOCITY - Serious discussion

[PBX Ronin 23]

Can the Players see that if they feed the supply with their demand for faster shooting guns and cheater boards, that they themselves are driving their own demise?

Tyger, I appreciate your position and it is exactly that which is part of our collective dilemma.

Perhaps the mitigating factor would be the notion of who assumes the liability. If the manufacturers collectively say, "this is a standard board that can legitemately compete in the NPPL/PSP" and not cap the ROF because we all know no can really physically hit those numbers without assistance anyway.....then the after-market guys would feed the demand for cheater boards because there is still a demand for them to do so.

Now let's imagine if you will that SP and WDP obliges (not that it will necessarily happen ) and sets the licensing fee for those after-market board manufacturers at an exhorbitantly high price then deligently enforce their patents. The net effect then would be the cost being passed down to the consumer who now must pay $500 for that "cheater" board. When that happens, do you think that it would minimize the proliferation of cheater boards all together?

What are your thoughts on this?

[manike]

Manike, right now I'm really not in the mood for an internet fight. But, since you seem want one, I'll oblige.

No, I honeslty do not believe that most (perhaps I should emphasise that word from now on) companies rally give a rat's tail about my safety on a field of play. I know for a fact most referees do not, I can tell you most fields don't, I can tell you through implication that most companies seem to not care either. If somoene pays the money, they can get a device that they might or might not be able to control.

It's been my expirence in the last 4-5 years that I've seen more people inured in paintball than before. Both refs and players dropped to the ground unconcious DIRECTLY because of multiple impacts. Skyball last year, for example, a ref was KO'd by a player near the end of the event. Up to that time I'd never seen with my own eyes somoene dropped unconcious from paintball strikes. It's been repeated in the last few years, and there's at least one pro player who brags that he loves to knock people unconcious by overshooting to the head (It was in a PGI interview).

Alternatively, can you show me evidence and proof that it's perfectly OK to take 15 BPS to the back of the head, kidneys, and so on? No, nobodys DONE that kind of research. And I certainly do not have the money to sink into it, nor am I interested in causing permanent damage to my own nerves for research. Am I a "Scaremonger"? No, I'm a realist. The law of probability dictates that if something is POSSIBLE, then it can happen.

The BBD issue was proven to me with the CCP lawsuit, which came down to negligence. Somoene didn't replace a BBD that ultimately failed. That's human error, a lack of someone taking the time to give a flying ...act. So it's more than probable that it can not only happen again, but it will. MY safety at a field is dictated NOT by my actions, but by the actions of other people. I do not want to lose an eye becasue somoene was too cheap to spend $5 on a new BBD, and that's out of my realm of control.

By the same token, MY SAFETY on a paintball field falls into the hands of my opponents. I do not know if a player is running a ramping board, or a full auto board, or in fact if they have a board that creates any number of cheats. If one of them has a runaway board and they "accidentally" shoot 20 balls per second and causes nerve damage, will they say "Oh, oops, sorry dude" and all is better? And why did they buy that board? The industry crammed BPS=BETTER down their throats through advertizing and tournament structures. Then the players spend the $150+ on the new board and software which makes someone money. And that had to come from somewhere. SOMEONE in the industry sat down and said "Oh! you know, they want faster shooting paintguns! It might be a little unsafe, but who cares! We can sell a few thousand before the legal ramifications hit." Seen it before, it'll happen again. I may be jaded, but I'm never dissapointed by what happens.

As far as I'm concerned, there's only a few companies who actually care for the people who play, and not just look at the sport as a cash cow. And is the sky falling in? I didn't say that. I just said that it's plausable that I can be injured becasue of a ramping board, because nobody freakin' cares. Not the players, the fields, the rules, nor the companies. Give the players what they want, to hell with the reprecussions. And if you and your company does care, then prove it to me. Talk is cheap, actions speak louder. I'm a hard sell, but I'm open to listen.

-Tyger (I am so not in the mood for this right now)

Tyger there will always be a number of incidents that 'happen'. As said before, we can't stop everything and we can't prevent idiots being idiots. But your post rubbed me the wrong way because you say that 'NO-ONE' in the industry cares and that just isn't true.

You give great examples of where 'people' have failed. Does that mean you have to judge everyone and everything by their examples?

So some people don't care. Does that mean everyone doesn't care?

It's like saying some paintballers cheat so they all do. Or some paintball players have ramping boards so they all do...

Do you cheat? Do you have a ramping board?

Nope. See why it sucks to be lumped in with a minority?

However many times I design a great BBD, is it my fault when a stupid field owner doesn't replace them when worn? or doesn't enforce safety like he should? does it mean I failed in designing a safety device that would have worked were it implemented as intended? Does it mean I don't care?

NO. So don't blame an entire industry for a relatively small number of incidents and stupid people and write us off as not caring or trying to do anything about it.

I can't disclose all of the safety items I've worked on, not all will 'bare my name' but in the next couple of months you will see products that are aimed directly towards making paintball safer, and I'm proud to have been even a small part in getting them out.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Thats why I think capped boards in tourneys is really a shame. Some people are naturally able to shoot faster than others. Some pople can adjust their gear to shoot extermely fast. By putting a cap on the speed, you are hindering their talent, their "edge" if you will.

An uncapped pure semi board with inspection ports would make sure the trully talented guys who can pull 18bps remain above those with less talent. That indeed would be a good thing for the sport.

Good post Ubooze!

[Lohman446]

Manike, right now I'm really not in the mood for an internet fight. But, since you seem want one, I'll oblige.

I'm not looking for a fight Tyger, I'm looking for a discussion. I realize that comment, by name was not directed at me but I want this discussion, and you seem to me to be one end of the spectrum. Face it, great ideas come from the ends of spectrums, they just sometimes need to be tempered a bit.

No, I honeslty do not believe that most (perhaps I should emphasise that word from now on) companies rally give a rat's tail about my safety on a field of play. I know for a fact most referees do not, I can tell you most fields don't, I can tell you through implication that most companies seem to not care either. If somoene pays the money, they can get a device that they might or might not be able to control.

Let me say that I disagree with you on the basis for this comment. I do beleive that more than less PB companies, fields, and refs care about the overall safety. Competently and well are different discussions. That disagreement being stated let me take your statement as true at face value for discussion sake. We need to form ourselves a governing body AND LISTEN TO THEM. We need a "seal" that paitnball players look for that deems things to be within acceptable standards. Underwriter Labs for instance if you want an outside of paintabll example. Lets call this governing body the PBSA - paintball safety association for this discussion. I realize it does not exist. But lets discuss what our goals are.

It's been my expirence in the last 4-5 years that I've seen more people inured in paintball than before. Both refs and players dropped to the ground unconcious DIRECTLY because of multiple impacts. Skyball last year, for example, a ref was KO'd by a player near the end of the event. Up to that time I'd never seen with my own eyes somoene dropped unconcious from paintball strikes. It's been repeated in the last few years, and there's at least one pro player who brags that he loves to knock people unconcious by overshooting to the head (It was in a PGI interview).

I remember an exception linebacker, or free safety who one time made a comment that he was going to take down Favre. It was last year. Noone thought anything about it, people talk big all the time. He did it, and he was fined.. a slap on the wrist that was really not acceptable to me it should have been worse. Just for the record I am not a Packers fan, I like football but no certain team. People talk trash for any number of reasons... and we have allowed it in sports. The cause of these multiple impacts should be addressed.

Alternatively, can you show me evidence and proof that it's perfectly OK to take 15 BPS to the back of the head, kidneys, and so on? No, nobodys DONE that kind of research. And I certainly do not have the money to sink into it, nor am I interested in causing permanent damage to my own nerves for research. Am I a "Scaremonger"? No, I'm a realist. The law of probability dictates that if something is POSSIBLE, then it can happen.

No.. I cannot, nor can you show me proof that 15 shots to any of those areas, under normal velocity from a 3 gram projectile is necessarily seriously dangerous. Just for the record, I am in favor of a "rebound" mode like SP has come up with, and I think it was a compromise. Rebound is not just "accidentally" set off - not like low debounce can be. I use rebound regularly and I have NEVER overshot someone in anything but long lanes.

The BBD issue was proven to me with the CCP lawsuit, which came down to negligence. Somoene didn't replace a BBD that ultimately failed. That's human error, a lack of someone taking the time to give a flying ...act. So it's more than probable that it can not only happen again, but it will. MY safety at a field is dictated NOT by my actions, but by the actions of other people. I do not want to lose an eye becasue somoene was too cheap to spend $5 on a new BBD, and that's out of my realm of control.

This was stupidity of a series of people. I don;t think it is reminiscant of every field. Most fields I see do replace barrel socks when they need to be. Agreed hat we should inspect player safety equipment better...

By the same token, MY SAFETY on a paintball field falls into the hands of my opponents. I do not know if a player is running a ramping board, or a full auto board, or in fact if they have a board that creates any number of cheats. If one of them has a runaway board and they "accidentally" shoot 20 balls per second and causes nerve damage, will they say "Oh, oops, sorry dude" and all is better? And why did they buy that board? The industry crammed BPS=BETTER down their throats through advertizing and tournament structures. Then the players spend the $150+ on the new board and software which makes someone money. And that had to come from somewhere. SOMEONE in the industry sat down and said "Oh! you know, they want faster shooting paintguns! It might be a little unsafe, but who cares! We can sell a few thousand before the legal ramifications hit." Seen it before, it'll happen again. I may be jaded, but I'm never dissapointed by what happens.

See above, I would rather have ramp than low debounce or mechanical bounce. Velocity cheats need to somehow be made unacceptable... However... somethings that people have called ramp (shot, not velocity) are just auto-triggers x 32.... controlled ramp to me is a step forward in BPS with a consideration to safety

As far as I'm concerned, there's only a few companies who actually care for the people who play, and not just look at the sport as a cash cow. And is the sky falling in? I didn't say that. I just said that it's plausable that I can be injured becasue of a ramping board, because nobody freakin' cares. Not the players, the fields, the rules, nor the companies. Give the players what they want, to hell with the reprecussions. And if you and your company does care, then prove it to me. Talk is cheap, actions speak louder. I'm a hard sell, but I'm open to listen.

Rebound.. I keep going back to this example. Somewhere rebound was a compromise. The 15BPS they did not just pull out of the air (I hope). I think there was someone who looked into this, who came up with the NXL rules that have made various rebound modes popular.

Theres better money elsewhere ... Paintabll is inherently a dangerous market, because as you stated above some idiot somewhere is going to do something stupid with your product and you are going to end up paying off nuisance lawsuits - or mroe serious ones

[Tyger]

Tyger there will always be a number of incidents that 'happen'. As said before, we can't stop everything and we can't prevent idiots being idiots. But your post rubbed me the wrong way because you say that 'NO-ONE' in the industry cares and that just isn't true.

You give great examples of where 'people' have failed. Does that mean you have to judge everyone and everything by their examples?

Even if I don't, the rest of the world WILL.

WHY put tools into the hands of idiots? WHY give people the capability to be moron? Accountability does not end at point of sale! As far as I've seen, industry follows the money regardless of other factors. And as far as I'm concerned, the industry does not care what happens to the players. A new breed crops up every 3-5 years anyway, so who cares about the reprecussions or long term effects?

And so far, I haven't seen any long term thinking in paintball. What's "too dangerous" now will be "retro" in 4 years. Anyone else remember when 13.5 PBS was considered almost too fast? Now you're "Slow" if you can't pull that fast.

Sometimes in the consideration of safety you have to make rules the athletes won't like. Hockey players don't like wearing helmets, but they do so becasue they have to. NASCAR drivers hate restrictor plates, football players dont like the face grills... If the NPPL said "Solid cap 10 BPS", the players would cry and moan, and still show up to play.

-Tyger

[hitech]

An uncapped pure semi board with inspection ports would make sure the trully talented guys who can pull 18bps remain above those with less talent.

I have to disagree. When it comes to "pulling" a trigger fast, I am not talented. Not at all. However, I can obtain 16 BPS on what I believe is a fully ASTM compliant eMag without any trouble at all. A little practice and I can hit 18. In game situations, with a little adrenalin, 18 isn't very difficult. And I can teach it to just about anyone.

BTW, I call it the manike raking technique.

[phantomhitman]

you will never, and i do mean NEVER, solve the fps and bps arguement. there are too many factors on the equipment, as well as hands in the cookie jar, to solve that. until one company creates an equal board for every single electro out there the cheaters-rampers-bouncers-debouncers-and coders will live on. after the board is created you need a way to check a gun when it comes onto the field to play, which could be expensive or time consuming.

or you could just hand out 12 volt revys when people come onto the field of play. no matter how much they cheat the loader will not agree this is the cheapest, most effective way that i see.

[ubooze]

An uncapped pure semi board with inspection ports would make sure the trully talented guys who can pull 18bps remain above those with less talent. That indeed would be a good thing for the sport.

Good post Ubooze!

But how could that be done? Whats to say the board can't be dual-booted or some other garbage like that? Unless the bored is totally tamper-proof or regulated extensively by the authority(quarentine the board) then there shall always be a chance that it will be manipulated.

I mean, we have come to a conclusion of what needs to be done. Boards must be watched and safety enforced, which it is, to a certain extent. Maybe not totally like Tyger mentions, but its being worked on and HOPEFULLY will be achieved to the greatest extent the people can.

Every other solution besides the capped boards brings in some sort of inconvenience. As a result, the people who cannot legitemately attain 18+ BPS will complain, and it probably won't work.

What we need to focus on is a method through which this board could be executed. From what I remeber, WDP tried, but that failed. Safety cannot really be improved on by the companies. Thats in the hands of the players, the fields, and the refs.

[manike]

Even if I don't, the rest of the world WILL.-Tyger

Right.

So everyone that owns a gun is a murderer.

Everyone that owns a baseball bat is going to use it smack someone in the head.

Everyone that owns an axe is an axe murderer.

WHY put tools into the hands of idiots? WHY give people the capability to be moron?

Are you serious? You live in a free country called America. And you are really asking this?

Do you want to limit people's freedoms and rights?

And as far as I'm concerned, the industry does not care what happens to the players.

That's a very selfish opinion and sums this up. It's your opinon and you are sticking to it. Fine. Doesn't make it true or right though.

And so far, I haven't seen any long term thinking in paintball. What's "too dangerous" now will be "retro" in 4 years. Anyone else remember when 13.5 PBS was considered almost too fast? Now you're "Slow" if you can't pull that fast.

??? Because it doesn't agree with your opinion it's dangerous, and not long thinking?

Were you one of the guys that thought putting a pump on a Nelspot was 'too dangerous' and shortsighted?

Were you one of the guys that thought having semi's were 'too dangerous' and short sighted?'

Were you one of the guys that thought having compressed nitrogen systems were 'too dangerous' and short sighted?

I'll bet you were. And you haven't been proven right yet.

[MindJob]

just off the top of my head, I can see more than a few cheats. Bring my own laptop and re-flash the board. Put in a dummy board that gets flashed while the real one stays illegal. Or just have two guns.

Until we have a "tournament gun" spec sheet that says "all paintguns must adhere to the following criteria, any other modifications is immediate ejection from the event with no refund" there's no point in even talking about gun cheats.

Why, YES! The industry / tournament series needs to grow a pair!

-Tyger

You could put a numbered 'seal' of some sort on the marker once it is flashed. I am in logistics, and every trailer that comes in or out of my facility has an indiviual seal on it. If the seal is off, or, if a different one is on, then something is up.

It wouldnt be difficult to make a grip frame, or modify existing ones, with some sort of seal or other method to be able to determine if it has been tampered with AFTER a flashing. After an event, the seal could easily be removed by the gun owner.

There are solutions to this issue, as stated, its time for the industry to grow a pair... Then the same brilliant minds that created all of these wonderful paintguns can focus and concentrate on this problem.

[ubooze]

Sometimes in the consideration of safety you have to make rules the athletes won't like. Hockey players don't like wearing helmets, but they do so becasue they have to. NASCAR drivers hate restrictor plates, football players dont like the face grills... If the NPPL said "Solid cap 10 BPS", the players would cry and moan, and still show up to play.

-Tyger

But this is different Tyger. In paintball, but emplacing a cap you are limiting people's edge over the competition. We aren't talking about necessary safety featuresd, we have that, and we can use that. We have masks, and BBDs, and neck protectors, and full head gaurds. That can and ought to be enforced. But emplacing a cap is just straight wrong. I mean, you can shoot 18 BPS with your Timmy or whatnot, but the other guy can hit 20 or more in his DM4. That makes him more talented and faster. Your are hindering his advantage.

So maybe it shouldn't be the issue of capping the guns, but new safety standards. High ROF and lotsa paint is the way this all evolved. Its how it has grown to be. Maybe we need full-head gear and secure straps and more pads as mandatory on players. In fencing, you are usually checked to have at least 2-layers or protection so that you don't get severly whipped. Your blade is checked not to activate too early or bend to much. BUT if you can swing well enough to bend that blade, its YOUR advatage.

[MindJob]

This is perhaps one of the best suggestions I've heard. The problem is, will the manufacturers comply. I can see Dave the NPPL Scrutineer run away with an idea like this. Great idea.

Hey, make sure I get credited


(or at least a few free passed to PBX )

[PBX Ronin 23]

Folks, let's keep in mind that the dramatic increase in paint consumption was actually the catalyst that allowed the industry to take advantage of the economies of scale. Thus making it cheaper to play now than two years ago and five years before that.

Just food for thought.

[manike]

So maybe it shouldn't be the issue of capping the guns, but new safety standards. High ROF and lotsa paint is the way this all evolved. Its how it has grown to be. Maybe we need full-head gear and secure straps and more pads as mandatory on players. In fencing, you are usually check to have at least 2-layers or protection so that you don't get severly whipped. You blade is checked not to activate to early or bend to much. BUT if you can swing well enough to bend that blade, its YOUR advatage.

[phantomhitman]

i have to agree with teh above statement also